Isiah Thomas vs Dwyane Wade - Higher on the all time list?

[ManRamForPrez24]

So much respect for this post.

Real talk: Were you honestly going to post about the 88 Finals or did you see my post first?

Game 6 of the 1988 Finals probably defines his legacy the most. He was tremendous and absolutely willed his team to the win. It was phenomenal.

Wade has had equally impressive games, and has easily been the better playoff performer overall. Even last year's "bad effort" stacks up to anything Zeke did besides maybe 88 and 90 (even those are close).

[ManRamForPrez24]

Give me a break. How many players have made 12 straight All-Star teams? How many PGs have been capable of averaging 21.2ppg and 13.9apg?

He's definately underrated and will continue to get more and more underrated as years pass.

He was great for a long period of time. He did 21 and 14 once, and never got close to it again. He was wildly inefficient and not nearly the defender Wade has been.


I can say the same thing about Wade. What other PLAYER has the ability to go 30/7.5/5 in a season? Oscar. And MJ did it once. Wade's 2008-2009 season was greater than any season Isiah had...and most of his seasons to date have been more impressive than Zeke's in general.

12 all stars in a row is great, Wade is currently sitting on 8. Not many people CAN do that, that's why he's one of the 30 best players ever. But there was really only one year where he was a top 5 player in the league, and he was hardly ever a top 10 player the rest of the seasons.

[StarvingKnick22]

So did Isiah. And so did every star player. It is a matter how you win though.

Yeah but the pistons built a team. Stayed together for years and turned into greatness.

[UPRock]

Yeah but the pistons built a team. Stayed together for years and turned into greatness.

And Miami didn't built a team? LOL You just hate every Heat player it seems.

[Bishnoff]

I'd have to go with Isiah having watched him play and against the competition of his day (when compared to Wade).

[mightybosstone]

Give me a break. How many players have made 12 straight All-Star teams? How many PGs have been capable of averaging 21.2ppg and 13.9apg?

He's definately underrated and will continue to get more and more underrated as years pass.

The dude had a career .516 TS% and averaged 3.8 turnovers a game in his career. Everyone ripped Lin last season because he turned the ball over too much, but his 3.6 a night doesn't touch Thomas' career average. That has to account for something.

I never got a chance to watch Isiah play, but I think I would have loved his game, especially how he stepped up in the playoffs and was a top notch defender. But I can't overlook his deficiencies on offense when there are so many better players who didn't have glaring holes like that on their stat sheets. Wade is one of those players.

That being said, if we're talking all-time list, I still would have Isiah within 5-10 spots. And they would both probably crack the top 30-35. I just think Wade's prime was much stronger and he has a better all around game.

[mightybosstone]

And anyone who wants to bring up the 88 Finals needs to remember just how good Wade was in the 2006 Finals. I've been watching the NBA since 1994 and that may be the single greatest performance by an individual player in an NBA Finals I've ever seen.

[jammastershake]

It's laughable that Wade is in anyone's top 30 of all-time. Lets be real here. He's is 40ish.

[KnicksorBust]

He was great for a long period of time. He did 21 and 14 once, and never got close to it again. He was wildly inefficient and not nearly the defender Wade has been.

You completely dodge the question. He did 21-14 once but he also did 20-10+ for four consecutive seasons. How many people did that?

Also I'd love to hear you justify your comment about how you know Wade was vastly superior defensively?

I can say the same thing about Wade. What other PLAYER has the ability to go 30/7.5/5 in a season? Oscar. And MJ did it once. Wade's 2008-2009 season was greater than any season Isiah had...and most of his seasons to date have been more impressive than Zeke's in general.

Completely subjective.

12 all stars in a row is great, Wade is currently sitting on 8. Not many people CAN do that, that's why he's one of the 30 best players ever. But there was really only one year where he was a top 5 player in the league, and he was hardly ever a top 10 player the rest of the seasons.[/QUOTE]

[Ill21]

Give me a break. How many players have made 12 straight All-Star teams? How many PGs have been capable of averaging 21.2ppg and 13.9apg?

He's definately underrated and will continue to get more and more underrated as years pass.

This. Thomas is extremely underrated and always will be.

[ManRamForPrez24]

You completely dodge the question. He did 21-14 once but he also did 20-10+ for four consecutive seasons. How many people did that?

Also I'd love to hear you justify your comment about how you know Wade was vastly superior defensively?

Sorry. I didn't say, "not many PGs ever could have done 21-14". I figured you'd understand that I am aware of that. Zeke is a top 5 PG of all time right now, but he's not a better player than Wade. I'm not knocking Zeke's ability (well, to an extent I am), but I literally just don't understand how you argue for Zeke here. I'm constantly fascinated by Zeke in this regard. Perhaps I'm just missing something...I don't think I am.


As for defense. How do I know? Well, I've seen plenty of Zeke and plenty of Wade and that's how I've concluded my opinion. Without looking at any stats, I'd imagine they support this too.

And as MBS said, Wade's 2006 Finals in my opinion is the single greatest individual Finals effort ever. What Zeke did was great, but what Wade did was better Again, without looking it up, and since you brought up the trivial all-star game argument, I'll point out that I know Wade has been named to multiple all-defense teams, and I'm pretty certain Zeke never made one himself.

I can't tangibly think of any single thing Zeke did better than Wade does, besides obviously passing. I just can't.

Numbers can lie, but I don't think they lie at all here either...and Wade absolutely obliterates Zeke once you start bringing those into the equation. Like, massacres him. I'm trying not to bring them up because my opinion on this matter isn't due to what basketball-reference tells me...it just supports it.

[mightybosstone]

It's laughable that Wade is in anyone's top 30 of all-time. Lets be real here. He's is 40ish.

Then you clearly aren't very good at measuring statistical dominance. The dude is 6th in career PER, 22nd in career WS/48, has been a top 5 player for nearly a decade and was a Finals MVP in one of the greatest Finals performances in the history of the MVP. He EASILY has a case for top 30 all-time.

[mightybosstone]

But there was really only one year where he was a top 5 player in the league, and he was hardly ever a top 10 player the rest of the seasons.

********. Wade was top five in scoring four times, top five in PER six times and top five in WS/48 four times. This argument is completely ridiculous.

[LongWayFromHome]

So did Isiah. And so did every star player. It is a matter how you win though.

Not Dirk or Hakeem

[KnicksorBust]

Sorry. I didn't say, "not many PGs ever could have done 21-14". I figured you'd understand that I am aware of that. Zeke is a top 5 PG of all time right now, but he's not a better player than Wade. I'm not knocking Zeke's ability (well, to an extent I am), but I literally just don't understand how you argue for Zeke here. I'm constantly fascinated by Zeke in this regard. Perhaps I'm just missing something...I don't think I am.

Honestly, and I would never bait you ManRam because you're on a short list of maybe 7 people that I know would never bait me, I read this post and I don't see how it disputes anything that I said.

As for defense. How do I know? Well, I've seen plenty of Zeke and plenty of Wade and that's how I've concluded my opinion. Without looking at any stats, I'd imagine they support this too.

The Pistons were #3 in the league and #2 in the league when they won chips in 88 and 89. The Heat were 9th when they won their chip. That holds weight with me.

And as MBS said, Wade's 2006 Finals in my opinion is the single greatest individual Finals effort ever. What Zeke did was great, but what Wade did was better Again, without looking it up, and since you brought up the trivial all-star game argument, I'll point out that I know Wade has been named to multiple all-defense teams, and I'm pretty certain Zeke never made one himself.

See this is where I fundamentally disagree with you and many others. It's to a point where I'm feeling the need to start a thread. Accolades are meaningful and to just dismiss 12 straight all-star games is irresponsible.

I can't tangibly think of any single thing Zeke did better than Wade does, besides obviously passing. I just can't.

Numbers can lie, but I don't think they lie at all here either...and Wade absolutely obliterates Zeke once you start bringing those into the equation. Like, massacres him. I'm trying not to bring them up because my opinion on this matter isn't due to what basketball-reference tells me...it just supports it/

Yeah he's a better passer. Like... twice as better. And assists lead to points. And points win games. The way you dismiss the fact that Zeke was getting almost 2x as many assists is ridiculous. That's essentially 12 points per game which is more than enough to swing games and titles.