Niese vs. Dickey: Thoughts on trade rumors?

[YoungStuna28]

Not all of them do, do you remember Perez? did Zito improved with age?

Nobody is saying he does not have value, but his value is limited by how good he is, as of now he is a mid rotation guy at best, so why teams will be willing to give up a stellar package for for a mid rotation guy? He is not an ace or has pitched like an ace for teams to be willing to par with some of their best prospects just for Niese. Would the Mets be willing to trade Harvey and others for Niese if he was in another team?, so why would a team be willing to trade a prospect like Harvey let alone 2-3 guys for Niese?

Because teams need pitching... Period. They look for it every season, and when you can get a 26 year old under contract for 6 years at a great rate, you just fixed a hole in your rotation for years to come.

High potential pitching prospects can bust and become #5 starters or nothing at all. It's happens a lot. Niese is a sure-thing #2/#3 for your team and has no arm issues whatsoever.

Not all teams are looking for a 38 year old ace for one guaranteed season. Every team in baseball could use a guy like Niese. Niese would be the best pitcher on a team like the Royals.

[Sick Of It All]

How is Niese a sure #2, #3 dude? Has he had numerous years of pitching like a #2 to suggest he is likely to keep that up? He has had 1 good year, and while yes his peripherals were good in 2011, he was hurt and did awful the second half.

Yes teams need pitching, but if you have a guy that is viewed as having a top of the rotation potential, you are not going to trade him and others for a guy that is a #3 unless that guy has regressed already in the minors and lost some of his luster.

Again Niese is a nice pitcher, he is not Gio Gonzalez or Cole Hamels though and realistically you will not get a stellar package for him.

[fanofclendennon]

I thought you said his 38 is like being 30 because he is a knuckle ball pitcher. Clearly if you can see him being that productive that much longer baseball people can see that as well and teams won't care what they pay him.

my point is teams won't surrender money AND talent. The problem is the Mets are not in control of Dickey's contract. No team will surrender a huge haul of talent to get Dickey knowing they'd have to pay a fortune just to retain him.

[Sick Of It All]

my point is teams won't surrender money AND talent. The problem is the Mets are not in control of Dickey's contract. No team will surrender a huge haul of talent to get Dickey knowing they'd have to pay a fortune just to retain him.

This is the thing, Dickey is not going to command a fortune, his contract will be very reasonable imo, at most I see him getting 4/44.

[YoungStuna28]

How is Niese a sure #2, #3 dude? Has he had numerous years of pitching like a #2 to suggest he is likely to keep that up? He has had 1 good year, and while yes his peripherals were good in 2011, he was hurt and did awful the second half.

Yes teams need pitching, but if you have a guy that is viewed as having a top of the rotation potential, you are not going to trade him and others for a guy that is a #3 unless that guy has regressed already in the minors and lost some of his luster.

Again Niese is a nice pitcher, he is not Gio Gonzalez or Cole Hamels though and realistically you will not get a stellar package for him.

He was a #2 this season, and his peripherals suggested that last season.

I say #3 because he will likely be in the 3.20-4.00 ERA range moving forward imo. #2 is his best, #3 will be his worst. Who says anything about trading for a pitcher anyway? The Mets would want a position player back for Niese.

If a team needs a young controllable mid-rotation pitcher, they will deal a lot for him.

[Sick Of It All]

What his peripherals suggest and what he was are 2 very different things dude, his peripherals showed the potential for being better, but he was no where near a #2 or even a #3 in 2011.

That still does not mean he is a sure bet to pitch like a #2 or even a #3 going forward.

..and even if we are speaking of position players for Niese, I do not see a team offering a stud position player for him and others.

[YoungStuna28]

What his peripherals suggest and what he was are 2 very different things dude, his peripherals showed the potential for being better, but he was no where near a #2 or even a #3 in 2011.

That still does not mean he is a sure bet to pitch like a #2 or even a #3 going forward.

..and even if we are speaking of position players for Niese, I do not see a team offering a stud position player for him and others.

OK that is your opinion. Finding mid-rotation starters for cheap is so difficult. Teams like the Royals scramble and spend $12M on Ervin Santana who was arguably one of the worst starters in baseball last year.

It's like this: Who is more valuable to the Mets right now, Dickey or Niese? The answer is obviously Niese for all the reasons I stated above. Longevity matters for sure, Niese could be a Met for the next 10+ years.

[Sick Of It All]

They did not give up much for Santana and yes they would likely take a chance on a guy like him than deal one of their better prospects or 2 or 3 for a guy like Niese. I just do not see them offering Starling or Myers and others for Niese.

[YoungStuna28]

They did not give up much for Santana and yes they would likely take a chance on a guy like him than deal one of their better prospects or 2 or 3 for a guy like Niese. I just do not see them offering Starling or Myers and others for Niese.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Dickey bringing back a better haul than Niese. Teams will still see a lot of potential and upside with him. If Dickey had two years left, I'd agree.

[Sick Of It All]

I do not see the Royals be willing to give up that much for Niese, but a team like the Dodgers or the Angels would be more willing to deal for the ace and give up their better prospects for Dickey and obviously they can both resign him with ease. As I mention depends on the team.

[YoungStuna28]

I do not see the Royals be willing to give up that much for Niese, but a team like the Dodgers or the Angels would be more willing to deal for the ace and give up their better prospects for Dickey and obviously they can both resign him with ease. As I mention depends on the team.

Both of those teams don't have any prospects we should want.

The market is narrowed with Dickey compared to Niese making him less valuable.

[Sick Of It All]

....and again having a larger market does not mean that teams are more willing to deal their better prospects for him.

A player trade value is only as good as what a team is willing to offer. You can have 20 teams willing to deal for Niese, but if one team is willing to part with better prospects for Dickey, then his value was higher.

It all comes down to what team is more willing to deal some of their better prospects and for whom. It is not written in stone that Niese has more value than Dickey or vice versa.

[YoungStuna28]

What if Dickey doesn't want to sign an extension?

Is his 1 year more valuable than Niese's 6 years?

No.

[dunbummin]

How is Niese a sure #2, #3 dude? Has he had numerous years of pitching like a #2 to suggest he is likely to keep that up? He has had 1 good year, and while yes his peripherals were good in 2011, he was hurt and did awful the second half.

Yes teams need pitching, but if you have a guy that is viewed as having a top of the rotation potential, you are not going to trade him and others for a guy that is a #3 unless that guy has regressed already in the minors and lost some of his luster.

Again Niese is a nice pitcher, he is not Gio Gonzalez or Cole Hamels though and realistically you will not get a stellar package for him.

The comparison of Niese to Gonzalez and Hamels is interesting. Although I agree with you that Niese doesn't quite stack up to either, he is pretty close. They both matured earlier than Niese and had more innings under their belts and had slightly better stats by the time they reached age 25, but if you look at their performance at age 25:

- - - - - - Year - IP - - ERA - - WHIP - K/9 - BB/9
Hamels - 2009 - 193.2 - 4.32 - 1.286 - 7.8 - 2.3
Gonzalez 2011 - 202.0 - 3.12 - 1.317 - 8.8 - 4.1
Niese - - 2012 - 190.1 - 3.40 - 1.172 - 7.3 - 2.3

Although I would not trade him, it seems to me that Niese would bring a damn good return in a trade, close to what the A's got for Gio.

[YoungStuna28]

The comparison of Niese to Gonzalez and Hamels is interesting. Although I agree with you that Niese doesn't quite stack up to either, he is pretty close. They both matured earlier than Niese and had more innings under their belts and had slightly better stats by the time they reached age 25, but if you look at their performance at age 25:

- - - - - - Year - IP - - ERA - - WHIP - K/9 - BB/9
Hamels - 2009 - 193.2 - 4.32 - 1.286 - 7.8 - 2.3
Gonzalez 2011 - 202.0 - 3.12 - 1.317 - 8.8 - 4.1
Niese - - 2012 - 190.1 - 3.40 - 1.172 - 7.3 - 2.3

Although I would not trade him, it seems to me that Niese would bring a damn good return in a trade, close to what the A's got for Gio.

Niese is not comparable to Hamels. Hamels had two great seasons before 2009 and led the Phillies to a WS in 2008 as their ace. Niese is a little bit closer to Gio. Niese can net a package a little less than Gio imo.