First Posted in March of 2011

[RickyPrior]

That's not the point now is it. YOU made the statement that he took only 6 shots and how truly great an accomplishment that was. I had to go back only a game or two to shoot down this inspiring "trend" you used in your argument.

So which is it?

[BChydro86]

Its awareness to know if ur shots falling. And the ability to be effective either way.

U used to commend iggy on this very same trait.... So now i ask u.... Why does iggy get praised for something that ur now dogging on turner for?

[RickyPrior]

Turner isn't Iggy.

[BChydro86]

No, ur right, but that doesnt change anything i said.

Ure just basically making exceptions based on who u like and dont like.

[RickyPrior]

********.

Iggy was a friggin all star. He was a veteran. He did all the things no one else wanted to do. And so when HE limited his shots...that was a good thing.

Turner isn't far-removed from being the 8th best guy on the team. He's been WILDLY disappointing. He's not proven to be a scorer in the least and does nothing well but rebound.

I'm not even sure why you bring up both in the same breath, frankly.

I don't trust Turner to make ANY determination as to who should shoot and when. He's shown NO positive judgment of any kind. No leadership. No b-ball 'smarts'.

I mean...what the **** are you even talking about.

[BChydro86]

Somehow pedigree makes someone else whos doing the same exact thing different?

When it helps lead to a win?

Makes no sense my friend.

Turner took 19 shots and scored 25pts when his shot was falling. He took 6 shots and grabbed 12rbs when his shot wasnt falling. He played good D in both games.... Both wins.

Overall, turner had 2 good games, didnt force anything, played in the flow of the game, and we won.

[RickyPrior]

Overall, turner had about 9 good games out of 160.

Fixed.





zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[BChydro86]

Ill take ur reverting to a elementary school argument style to mean i won......

[wannabGM]

There aren't many, if any, because being unathletic prevents you from getting to the rim and the line, and if you aren't doing that and can't hit threes then the only way to score 18 points is by taking 18 shots and someone that inefficient isn't getting 18 shots. I totally agree with that, and I've been pretty critical of him for those things. Which is why I said if he continues as the player he is he'll be an inefficient 11-14ppg scorer.

The premise of being a 17 or 18ppg scorer was that he learn to get to the line and develop a passable three - I never claimed he could do it without those skills, so the fact that nobody else can doesn't disprove that at all.

I think we pretty much agree on what he is right now, and what he's likely to be if he stays that way (although I think I think he's a pretty big favourite to be a 13/6/3 type guy - I wouldn't say it would make me happy to get that). I just disagree that his problems are unfixable - I don't think his athleticism is as bad or as binding of a constraint as you do, and I don't think his three is unfixable.

I agree that it's fixable. But part of what needs to be fixed is not just ET....the coach could certainly consider a few half court wrinkles that would make sense. As it is right now, ET gets most of his offense off the slow break. If it wasn't for all of those Dboards....he'd almost never score....or shoot close to nothing but mid to slightly long range jumpers.

Its not all about athleticism, i think the idea that turner isnt athletic enough is quite silly.

Andre miller who you say gets to the rim all day is a significantly worse athlete as a pg than turner is as a 2.

Craftiness and size and the knowledge of where the contact is coming from makes all the difference.

Its mostly a willingness to get in there that turner is lacking... Similar to iggy, who comversely is an unreal athlete, never takes it strong to the rim in the half court. Iggy and turner both prefer settling for the pull up, which draws less fouls, and is a lower percentage shot.... Especially for those 2.

There is def some truth there about ET preferring the pull up a bit too much....similar to Iggy. But ET doesn't get the ball in his sweet spots early in the shot clock like Miller does. Miller also has a quicker 1st step. ET is bigger, though. He needs to wiggle his way towards the rim with his fancy dribbles and lean on smaller 2 guards. But Collins and Jrue also have to make it a point to get ET more involved in this manner. They hold the keys to the offense.

Based on MY expectations, he's doing fine; pretty good even. These last 4 games he's averaging about 14.5 (I have him at 11-12 for the season...so far he's at 9.5). So point production isn't shocking (especially considering our starting SG & big-scoring center have been absent). His defense is a bit worse than I expected...but his TO's are better (2.0 these past 4 games) and assists about where they should be (4.25).

He still pouts, mopes and whines. But he also seems a bit less lost out there than he's been 85% of his career.

So all in all? Ok, sure.

For a second overall pick?

Laughable.

As Hydro pointed out better than I could...2nd overall picks usually either aren't star players or don't pan out. ET is a solid guy with unique talents that can help a team win. Compared to the historical value of the 2nd overall pick, he's actually pretty solid. Obviously, solid isn't very exciting with that high of a pick, so it's usually wise to trade down for extra value. That's where the Sixers screwed up. He's not that bad of a 2nd overall pick. Where the Sixers screwed up is the pick that year probably had decent value in a trade > than ET's ceiling.

********.

Iggy was a friggin all star. He was a veteran. He did all the things no one else wanted to do. And so when HE limited his shots...that was a good thing.

Turner isn't far-removed from being the 8th best guy on the team. He's been WILDLY disappointing. He's not proven to be a scorer in the least and does nothing well but rebound.

I'm not even sure why you bring up both in the same breath, frankly.

I don't trust Turner to make ANY determination as to who should shoot and when. He's shown NO positive judgment of any kind. No leadership. No b-ball 'smarts'.

I mean...what the **** are you even talking about.

Damn, a bit harsh. 8th best? Only rebound? No positive judgement of any kind? He is averaging 3.3 assists despite not doing the majority of the play making. He's averaging 12.3, 9.5, and 3.3 and is our most versatile defensive man defender on the perimeter. He gets scored on occasionally, but Iggy's don't grow on trees on defense.

And this is playing for Collins....for most coaches you can add 3ppg and 5% to the FG% for ET's stats in year 3. ET has limitations. But he is very far from useless.

[RickyPrior]

Take it however you want. To get so excited once every 20 games because Turner - by law of average - plays well is naive.

Like an elementary schooler.

[RickyPrior]

Damn, a bit harsh. 8th best?

Yep. Not too long ago he was on the bench with Lou and Thad and was not as productive as either.

Only rebound?

Put it this way: If it weren't FOR his rebounding, he'd never see the court.

He's averaging 12.3, 9.5, and 3.3 and is our most versatile defensive man defender on the perimeter.

Right. As I say...it's his rebounding. The points are fine, assists mediocre, defense wildly overrated.

And this is playing for Collins....for most coaches you can add 3ppg and 5% to the FG% for ET's stats in year 3. ET has limitations. But he is very far from useless.

Here we go again. Let's just ADD a bunch of positive stats to Evan's totals. THAT will make him GOOD! Hahaha.

But don't add them to anyone ELSE on the team...just our Precious Evan.

Hahaha. How odd to blindly come to the rescue of another man.

And I didn't call him 'useless'. Yet.

[wannabGM]

Yep. Not too long ago he was on the bench with Lou and Thad and was not as productive as either.




Put it this way: If it weren't FOR his rebounding, he'd never see the court.



Right. As I say...it's his rebounding. The points are fine, assists mediocre, defense wildly overrated.




Here we go again. Let's just ADD a bunch of positive stats to Evan's totals. THAT will make him GOOD! Hahaha.

But don't add them to anyone ELSE on the team...just our Precious Evan.

Hahaha. How odd to blindly come to the rescue of another man.

And I didn't call him 'useless'. Yet.

You realize there was a time Jrue was putting up similar assist totals in year 3 under Collins. ET doesn't have Jrue's ceiling. But trust me, playing for Collins has a lot to do with it. I watched Jrue fill the bucket in big situations in the preseason and early last season. He then became 3rd banana to Lou and Iggy, and also had to play off Hawes in the high post a ton. This coach has a clear track record of limiting the stat sheet of his young players while they learn some of the finer points of the game. Jrue could have easily averaged 7 assists and 16-20 points last season under a different coach. It's year 3 for ET now, so you do the math. ET's numbers will improve.

And last I checked ET hasn't had a 1/20 ratio lately of good to bad games. What NBA are you watching this season? If he was 8th in the rotation last season, that clearly had more to do with the coach than ET. I'm sorry if you can't see that. Just like you couldn't see it last year when I told you Jrue was our best crunch time scorer. You will see it eventually. Collins knows he's limiting these young guys in their roles. He is very aware of it. It was no accident ET suddenly played a bigger role in the post season last year...with Thad and Lou both becoming less valuable to a very obvious extent.

ET still shoots too many 2 point jumpers and wouldn't be scoring jack without some bad defense from the opposition on the slow break helping him along early in this season. But he isn't the waste of a Bball player you think.

[BChydro86]

If it wasnt for his rebounding he wouldnt play? I guess being our best defensive 2 isnt enough?

If iggy wasnt an elite defender, would he play?

If bargnani couldnt shoot would he play?

If your beloved jrich didnt shoot 3s would he play?

Im not even sure why nick young plays.

If shaq wasnt 320lbs would he play?

If faried didnt rebound, he wouldnt play either.

[BChydro86]

Ricky, ure argument keeps getting worse by the post

[RickyPrior]

If it wasnt for his rebounding he wouldnt play? I guess being our best defensive 2 isnt enough?

If iggy wasnt an elite defender, would he play?

If bargnani couldnt shoot would he play?

If your beloved jrich didnt shoot 3s would he play?

Im not even sure why nick young plays.

If shaq wasnt 320lbs would he play?

If faried didnt rebound, he wouldnt play either.

No. His 'd' is no better than half the guys on the team.

Yes. Because he was - by far - our best all-around player.

No idea.

Sure. He shoots well from everywhere, rebounds decently, assists more than ET, turns it over less and also because we need his veteran presence.

You defended Young. Too late to take it back.

No. Shaq sucks.

No idea.



Please state your point.