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  1. #16
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    Yeah Rizzo should be there soon enough.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    Yeah Rizzo should be there soon enough.
    What is "soon enough"?
    #Turtlepower

    Save the kittens, ignore sbs' posts
    Red Sox hater since 10/2011

    It is anyway, not anyways.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaughan333 View Post
    What is "soon enough"?
    A full season of awesome at least. Isn't Castro still proving himself? Same thing except even more bat is needed for the Cubs' young 1B to be in that category.

  4. #19
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    Any talk of Castro for Upton is ridiculous. Castro is younger, plays a tougher position and is more cost efficient than Upton. Sorry, but I do not even think Upton is a better offensive player than Castro either. Remember Upton plays 1/2 his game in a very hitter friendly park and is a few years older than Castro. If they were on the same team I believe their numbers would be very close.
    So if those are the particulars there has to be more coming from the Diamondbacks. Maybe they add Bauer and the Cubs add Maples or even a lesser pitching prospect further away. A controllable stud SS is just too important.

  5. #20
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    If I knew which Upton we were getting I don't think I'd be opposed to it. You could always plug Barney back at SS and get 3 WAR out of it. Upton/Barney could be better than Castro/whatever RF we can come up with. I'm not sure if I would do it or not, but I don't think it's an awful idea. I mean it's awful in the sense to do it becaue of Baez, but by itself I don't think it's awful

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mell413 View Post
    If I knew which Upton we were getting I don't think I'd be opposed to it. You could always plug Barney back at SS and get 3 WAR out of it. Upton/Barney could be better than Castro/whatever RF we can come up with. I'm not sure if I would do it or not, but I don't think it's an awful idea. I mean it's awful in the sense to do it becaue of Baez, but by itself I don't think it's awful
    I t would be awful and too much to give up for Upton. Moving Barney to SS now you need a second baseman. Why not just sign the other Upton and put him in center. Then you have Barney, B.J, Upton and Castro instead of Justin Upton, Barney and ? at second. Castro is more valuable than Justin Upton. If the Cubs made that offer straight up the Diamondbacks would take it in a second.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    One of these years the Cubs fan base will appreciate Castro for the talent he is.

    Oh noes at 22 he's not a GGer who piles up HRs and walks...Yuch. Guys like him who do what he's done at the ages he's done it at are, historically, the ones that become your stars and superstars.
    What are you talking about. Guys who have done what he did at 22. Gary Templeton, Edgar Rentaria. He's a good ball player. No doubt, but those waiting for him to become a superstar are the same people who are still waiting for Shawon Dunston's super stardom to happen.

    Still want no part of upton.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mell413 View Post
    If I knew which Upton we were getting I don't think I'd be opposed to it. You could always plug Barney back at SS and get 3 WAR out of it. Upton/Barney could be better than Castro/whatever RF we can come up with. I'm not sure if I would do it or not, but I don't think it's an awful idea. I mean it's awful in the sense to do it becaue of Baez, but by itself I don't think it's awful
    In the short term sure, but that's not even set in stone. Long term, give me the offensive minded SS and I'll find a RF somewhere, possibly even Upton when he's a FA in 2015. It's far easier to find one than the other.

    It's very recent for me but I've come to believe that Justin Upton is at least a little overrated and I think I'm crazy enough to say that I prefer his brother for the majority, say 3, of the next 4/5 years (though alot of that is position based - that is a legitimately huge advantage). J. Upton really has played in a top hitter's park for half his games, he's been a fairly inconsistent player, he's overrated athletically and defensively, and the cost is absolutely ridiculous for a corner OFer.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    What are you talking about. Guys who have done what he did at 22. Gary Templeton, Edgar Rentaria. He's a good ball player. No doubt, but those waiting for him to become a superstar are the same people who are still waiting for Shawon Dunston's super stardom to happen.

    Still want no part of upton.
    You look at the players who had 500 hits by age 22 and most of them are in the Hall of Fame. Same with the players who hit .300 in a qualifying season at age 20.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flips333 View Post
    What are you talking about. Guys who have done what he did at 22. Gary Templeton, Edgar Rentaria. He's a good ball player. No doubt, but those waiting for him to become a superstar are the same people who are still waiting for Shawon Dunston's super stardom to happen.

    Still want no part of upton.
    If Castro disappoints to where he only has an Edgar Renteria career then I'd say we still did alright. Luckily, he's been a better player from 20-22 than Renteria was, particularly offensively.

    Not sure what happened to Templeton that he fell off a cliff, but he was an excellent player for that brief period in time.

    Guys like Arky Vaughn, Rogers Hornsby, Doerr, Carroll, Fregosi, and Jackson are on his BbRef comps as well....

  11. #26
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    When Edgar Renteria/Garry Templeton is the floor people point to when they are trying to paint a negative picture of you, you know you are in pretty great shape.

    And they aren't even good comps, just people glancing at B-R's similarity scores and calling it a day.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chi416 View Post
    Let me begin by saying this is about as idiotic as they come. But, since it was written and I'm bored with the Liriano offer, return of Dempster and failed Haren deal threads, I figured I'd throw this out there for people to devour Rogers.

    His basic premise is that even though we have no pitching we shoud unload Castro for a talented but somewhat meandering Upton because we have Baez tearing it up in the Arizona Fall League despite needing much improvement. If Castro could get us a pitching haul I might consider it, but sure as hell not for Upton. At least he gets to some semblance of sanity at the very end of the article when he suggests a left side of Baez and Castro in a few years -- which hopefully we'll have developed OF talent and added/developed pitching. So, everyone have fun shredding Phil Rogers...


    Phil Rogers

    INDIAN WELLS, Calif. Go ahead, Theo Epstein.

    Make that splash your fans have been waiting for since you were hired. Trade Starlin Castro for Justin Upton.

    Javier Baez has your back.


    At 22, Castro is far from a polished product. But he's also probably the best young shortstop in baseball. Name someone better. I tried, and can't.

    That's good news for the Cubs. Even better is that Baez, 20 next month, it about to push Castro hard.

    "He is going to be a star,'' a longtime baseball executive said Thursday. "His BP stood out in the (Arizona Fall League). His bat speed is extraordinary. I can see him getting better. He will be a far more impactful player than Castro.''

    While Castro recently signed a seven-year, $60 million contract, he is not exempt from trade rumors. There are only a few whispers now, but you soon may hear how the Cubs are as good of a fit with the Diamondbacks for Upton as the Rangers are.

    The Diamondbacks have targeted Texas as a possible place to move the 25-year-old right fielder, figuring it can land an impact shortstop in Elvis Andrus or 19-year-old Jurickson Profar while giving the Rangers a middle-of-the-order bat to replace Josh Hamilton. But Rangers sources say they aren't interested in dealing Andrus or Profar at this point, in part because they still think they can re-sign Hamilton.

    Castro, signed through 2019, when his salary will reach $11 million - with an option for '20 at $16 million - would have much more trade value than Andrus and maybe as much as Profar. But do the Cubs want Upton?

    It doesn't appear they are aggressively pursuing him, but why not? He's not one of those "post-prime'' players Epstein vows to avoid and he's signed for three years. His upside, like that of Baez, remains near the top of the charts according to scouts, many of whom still see him as a potential 40-homer, high-average hitter.

    He has gone stale in Arizona and manager Kirk Gibson seems to want him gone. It's an opportunity for someone, and Epstein should see him as a player who could shorten the Cubs' rebuilding period and still be around to play alongside Jorge Soler, Albert Almora and Baez.

    As far as the timing on the Cubs' end, they could take him for a test drive in 2013 and then either give him a huge extension locking him up through 2019 and beyond or trade him for pitching. They would need a place-holder at shortstop while Baez finishes the climb from high-A Daytona, but that's a minor detail and there is no shortage of options.

    There aren't many players like Baez.

    He has plenty to learn like improving his plate discipline and answering questions about his lateral range but he hit four homers and drove in 16 in the 14 AFL games he played before fracturing the tip of his left thumb. Oh, and he had a steal of home, breaking for the plate when the pitcher threw to first base.

    Cubs general manager Jed Hoyer says he has been impressed with Baez's defense, and anyone who has seen him raves about his potential as a hitter. The executive I quoted earlier said he has been watching him since 2009, when he was a sophomore at Arlington Country Day School in Jacksonville, Fla., and has seen him every year since.

    The more people see Baez, the more they like him. That hasn't been the case with Upton.

    One executive says he's "a nice guy to take a risk on, but he hasn't displayed consistency.'' He says he could be Matt Kemp but doesn't have the "same focus and passion'' as the Dodgers' superstar.

    Maybe he's not the right guy for the Cubs. Maybe they should hold onto their ammunition until someone even better comes onto the market. Or maybe they should just plan to play Castro and Baez next to each other for a decade, one at shortstop, the other at third base.

    It's always nice to have options, and the combination of Baez and Castro gives the Cubs some very attractive ones.
    I agree with your sentiment at the top, except on Phil Rogers. As dimwitted as his suggestion may seem, part of his job is to stiumulate discussion in the here and now.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2323:24264023
    Quote Originally Posted by chi416 View Post
    Let me begin by saying this is about as idiotic as they come. But, since it was written and I'm bored with the Liriano offer, return of Dempster and failed Haren deal threads, I figured I'd throw this out there for people to devour Rogers.

    His basic premise is that even though we have no pitching we shoud unload Castro for a talented but somewhat meandering Upton because we have Baez tearing it up in the Arizona Fall League despite needing much improvement. If Castro could get us a pitching haul I might consider it, but sure as hell not for Upton. At least he gets to some semblance of sanity at the very end of the article when he suggests a left side of Baez and Castro in a few years -- which hopefully we'll have developed OF talent and added/developed pitching. So, everyone have fun shredding Phil Rogers...


    Phil Rogers

    INDIAN WELLS, Calif. — Go ahead, Theo Epstein.

    Make that splash your fans have been waiting for since you were hired. Trade Starlin Castro for Justin Upton.

    Javier Baez has your back.


    At 22, Castro is far from a polished product. But he's also probably the best young shortstop in baseball. Name someone better. I tried, and can't.

    That's good news for the Cubs. Even better is that Baez, 20 next month, it about to push Castro hard.

    "He is going to be a star,'' a longtime baseball executive said Thursday. "His BP stood out in the (Arizona Fall League). His bat speed is extraordinary. I can see him getting better. He will be a far more impactful player than Castro.''

    While Castro recently signed a seven-year, $60 million contract, he is not exempt from trade rumors. There are only a few whispers now, but you soon may hear how the Cubs are as good of a fit with the Diamondbacks for Upton as the Rangers are.

    The Diamondbacks have targeted Texas as a possible place to move the 25-year-old right fielder, figuring it can land an impact shortstop in Elvis Andrus or 19-year-old Jurickson Profar while giving the Rangers a middle-of-the-order bat to replace Josh Hamilton. But Rangers sources say they aren't interested in dealing Andrus or Profar at this point, in part because they still think they can re-sign Hamilton.

    Castro, signed through 2019, when his salary will reach $11 million - with an option for '20 at $16 million - would have much more trade value than Andrus and maybe as much as Profar. But do the Cubs want Upton?

    It doesn't appear they are aggressively pursuing him, but why not? He's not one of those "post-prime'' players Epstein vows to avoid — and he's signed for three years. His upside, like that of Baez, remains near the top of the charts according to scouts, many of whom still see him as a potential 40-homer, high-average hitter.

    He has gone stale in Arizona and manager Kirk Gibson seems to want him gone. It's an opportunity for someone, and Epstein should see him as a player who could shorten the Cubs' rebuilding period and still be around to play alongside Jorge Soler, Albert Almora and Baez.

    As far as the timing on the Cubs' end, they could take him for a test drive in 2013 and then either give him a huge extension — locking him up through 2019 and beyond — or trade him for pitching. They would need a place-holder at shortstop while Baez finishes the climb from high-A Daytona, but that's a minor detail and there is no shortage of options.

    There aren't many players like Baez.

    He has plenty to learn — like improving his plate discipline and answering questions about his lateral range — but he hit four homers and drove in 16 in the 14 AFL games he played before fracturing the tip of his left thumb. Oh, and he had a steal of home, breaking for the plate when the pitcher threw to first base.

    Cubs general manager Jed Hoyer says he has been impressed with Baez's defense, and anyone who has seen him raves about his potential as a hitter. The executive I quoted earlier said he has been watching him since 2009, when he was a sophomore at Arlington Country Day School in Jacksonville, Fla., and has seen him every year since.

    The more people see Baez, the more they like him. That hasn't been the case with Upton.

    One executive says he's "a nice guy to take a risk on, but he hasn't displayed consistency.'' He says he could be Matt Kemp but doesn't have the "same focus and passion'' as the Dodgers' superstar.

    Maybe he's not the right guy for the Cubs. Maybe they should hold onto their ammunition until someone even better comes onto the market. Or maybe they should just plan to play Castro and Baez next to each other for a decade, one at shortstop, the other at third base.

    It's always nice to have options, and the combination of Baez and Castro gives the Cubs some very attractive ones.
    I agree with your sentiment at the top, except on Phil Rogers. As dimwitted as his suggestion may seem, part of his job is to stiumulate discussion in the here and now.
    Rogers is the same guy who came up with the "plus/minus" idea of evaluating a teams offseason a couple of years ago...one of the dumbest things I may have ever read. He's just not that good of a baseball analyst.

    One more thing, people seem to discount the strides Castro made on defense last year. The thing with him was pretty much always that his bat would play well and the defense would come later. We saw that last year and I expect we'll see even more improvement next year. The bone headed plays will eventually be reduced with more maturity.

  14. #29
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    crap i lost the link...

    anyways justin upton has no trade protection to 4 teams cubs on that list as well

  15. #30
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    ^I'm sure that's just for leverage

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