How Should The GOP Handle Immigration Reform?

[jomota]

Wow, I didn't even see this big old boat of far-right-GOP talking points.

I know for a fact that Americans won't do those jobs. You find me Americans who are willing to do the work that illegal immigrants do for a fraction of the minimum wage. We established a minimum wage and safe working conditions because we feel that we deserve a certain level of compensation for our work and a certain amount of safety while we perform the tasks asked of us by our employers. The jobs we expect most illegals to do are below that compensation rate and below that safety limit. I know for a fact that we aren't willing to accept that low pay and safety. If we were, we would have cut our safety and pay standards years ago to compete.

If those are the jobs that you think illegals are doing, then you clearly have seen no illegals and done absolutely no research. Most of those jobs are done by either a citizen or by a machine that requires even less pay and lower safety standards.

The point about people on unemployment getting those jobs is not only a bad talking point but it also ignores basic economics. For the employer to give a person on unemployment that job it has to make economic sense for the employer and I'm sorry but it just doesn't make that sense.

To the last point, this isn't about insulting the American worker. This is about pointing out what we all know are facts. The American worker is not willing to do the jobs that illegals are for the level of compensation that they will receive (because citizens are legally barred from receiving that level of compensation. Revoke the minimum wage and the standards established by the states and OSHA and MAYBE you will see Americans compete for those jobs. But much more likely, you will see Americans of all political stripes revolt on those politicians who lower those standards and compensation requirements.

You are totally wrong in your points.

Employers who ignore safety rules and pay below minimum wage are as guilty as illegals are for being here. They should be prosecuted. If prices go up, so be it and the market will adjust itself. The market always adjusts itself.

Instead of giving away food stamps, housing allowances, AFDC, free phones, child credits etc. Give people these "jobs that no American will do" and allow them to earn some dignity and self respect at the same time. If you can keep the unions out if it, it will work just fine.

What we have right now is total dependency for millions of people. Slavery without the chains.

If you don't work, you don't eat. John Smith, Jamestown circa 1607. Seems like that policy worked out pretty well.

[dbroncos78087]

You are totally wrong in your points.

Employers who ignore safety rules and pay below minimum wage are as guilty as illegals are for being here. They should be prosecuted. If prices go up, so be it and the market will adjust itself. The market always adjusts itself.

Instead of giving away food stamps, housing allowances, AFDC, free phones, child credits etc. Give people these "jobs that no American will do" and allow them to earn some dignity and self respect at the same time. If you can keep the unions out if it, it will work just fine.

What we have right now is total dependency for millions of people. Slavery without the chains.

If you don't work, you don't eat. John Smith, Jamestown circa 1607. Seems like that policy worked out pretty well.

Well if I'm wrong prosecute those companies and "bring those jobs back to 'hard working' Americans"...

Wait for those prices to go up and people to stop using those products. That is your market adjusting, people will either stop using those products or buy them from other countries. Even things like produce people will buy them produced in other countries and not here.

Find me somewhere where your plan worked. Your plan was tested and failed miserably in Alabama. They did just what you are saying, they got the illegals to leave and tried to get the Americans to take those jobs. It turns out that they both weren't able or willing to complete those jobs. They simply weren't willing or able to do those jobs and the crops suffered because of it, which also made us suffer because over $1B got wasted and rotted out in the fields.

On a somewhat unrelated note though, if you think food stamps last forever and that they are a form of slavery, then you clearly have no understanding of how that program actually works. You can't stay on it forever, it is a temporary program and not an endless supply of government checks.

[stephkyle7]

One thing that always irritates me is that many people compare immigrants today with those that came in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Today's immigrants seem to come here for better deal than a better way of life. Today's immigrants come here and try to recreate what they left. They not only fail to assimilate themselves into society, they do not even try. Anyone who has ever been to Miami knows what I am talking about. I suspect many areas of Los Angeles, SOCAL and Texas border cities have the same situation.

Second largest part of the Mexican economy is money being sent home from here.

Cities in Texas conducting all their business in Spanish.

Businesses in Texas accepting pesos.

The need for many city council members to be bilingual or hey can't be elected.

Other flags flying above American flags.

And on and on.

That disturbs me and I can't see that getting any better. Fast forward fifty years…Arizona, New Mexico and Southern California have super majorities of Mexicans in their population. Can they secede? Will there be issues in fairness in hiring, housing etc. for whites? Will schools be taught in English? If we ever have an armed conflict with Mexico, who in our overly hispanic military fights it?

Clearing up the illegal immigrant problem today seems so easy and huggy-feely. Just take everyone into the family. We have room and are a charitable people. However, they problems go far beyond the poor sad kids staring through the fenceline. And the politicians know it, they just don't want to talk about it.

Anyone ever wonder why elite, educated, talented, rich Mexicans aren't coming here? Just the poor, hungry, homeless are sneaking in. And it's understandable. The real problem is that Mexico, and all the other south of the border countries, do little or nothing to take care of their own people. They just export their problems to the generous giant to the north. Why are Republicans considered cold, cruel and uncharitable in their views towards immigrants but oh so little is ever said about the miserable governments those people are running away from.

My solution…find some way of giving amnesty to those already here, some sort of path to citizenship. You can't just deport everyone. Then slam the door shut and allow no more immigration unless you can prove you have something to add to society (and the ability to pick peaches does not count as adding to society. You need to have a real skill). We also need to take a hard line on visitors that overstay and disappear. Then the US government need to inflict pressure on these other countries to get their act together. Right now, we're just being laughed at.

Q…What't the difference between the Mariel Boat Lift under Carter and the present influx of illegals?

A…They now have less water to cross.

Assimilating into "our" way of life .....
You need to define that becasue it means differnt things.
Hispanics are christians....so that is the same.
Hispanics have strong family values.......so thats the same.
Hispanics work hard...............so thats the same.

let me cut through the fog for you.
YOU (and others) dont like Billboards or TV stations or stores in spanish...right?

That is CAPITALISM at work buddy.
You think the hispanics PAID Budweiser to hang a sign in spanish?(lol)
You think they came over with a couple hundred million to start a TV network...or did some fat cat rich R decide he could make a bundle by appealling to a demographic that didnt have a source of entertainment?

See its easy to redirect your frustration away from causes of problems that you dont want to see.

I wont strip every point youve tried to make down to the lie youve been told which is at its core, but it sounds a lot like Oreily or Dobbs talking and you should do yourself the favor of having all the info before you post.

Other flags flying over the American(lol) ......

[jomota]

Well if I'm wrong prosecute those companies and "bring those jobs back to 'hard working' Americans"...

Wait for those prices to go up and people to stop using those products. That is your market adjusting, people will either stop using those products or buy them from other countries. Even things like produce people will buy them produced in other countries and not here.

Find me somewhere where your plan worked. Your plan was tested and failed miserably in Alabama. They did just what you are saying, they got the illegals to leave and tried to get the Americans to take those jobs. It turns out that they both weren't able or willing to complete those jobs. They simply weren't willing or able to do those jobs and the crops suffered because of it, which also made us suffer because over $1B got wasted and rotted out in the fields.

On a somewhat unrelated note though, if you think food stamps last forever and that they are a form of slavery, then you clearly have no understanding of how that program actually works. You can't stay on it forever, it is a temporary program and not an endless supply of government checks.

Believe what you want but markets are highly movable and always adjust. Unless they are unnaturally hampered by an outside force. If people have to work to survive, they will do those jobs. If they are given money and food they will not.

I've been self employed for almost twenty five years. When times were good I had plenty of employees. Things are pretty tough right now. Guess who mops the floor, cleans the toilets, does deliveries and takes out the trash. All that stuff still has to get done. I also figured out how to repair a lot of my own machines. Guess whose hours have doubled.

The industry I am in has changed dramatically since I began. My income is from streams that didn't exist twenty five years ago and other streams that did have gone away. I changed and moved on. Those in my industry that did not are out of business. It's a pretty simple concept really.

Without outside influences, the market adjusts.

Food stamps may not be forever but they last an awful long time. Extensions, having other relatives apply, finagling all prolong the system.

Free rides do no one any good.

And here's a question I've never been able to get an answer to…Why is it that the people on the lower economic rungs have the most children? One would think that if money is tight, it may not be a good idea to have another child. I always wonder why that is so hard to figure out.

[jomota]

Assimilating into "our" way of life .....
You need to define that becasue it means differnt things.
Hispanics are christians....so that is the same.
Hispanics have strong family values.......so thats the same.
Hispanics work hard...............so thats the same.

let me cut through the fog for you.
YOU (and others) dont like Billboards or TV stations or stores in spanish...right?

That is CAPITALISM at work buddy.
You think the hispanics PAID Budweiser to hang a sign in spanish?(lol)
You think they came over with a couple hundred million to start a TV network...or did some fat cat rich R decide he could make a bundle by appealling to a demographic that didnt have a source of entertainment?

See its easy to redirect your frustration away from causes of problems that you dont want to see.

I wont strip every point youve tried to make down to the lie youve been told which is at its core, but it sounds a lot like Oreily or Dobbs talking and you should do yourself the favor of having all the info before you post.

Other flags flying over the American(lol) ......

Like many, you miss the point.

Budweiser and TV channels can do and advertise in whatever language they want. It;s their money. It just does isn't helpful to hispanics to continue avoiding the language of the country they say they are trying to be a part of.

The problem I have is people taking from here and still having a strong allegiance to there…there being wherever they came from. If you like it "there" so much, then why are you "here" at all. Are you in this country to partake or just to take .

Anyone who wants to come here legally and take part in our society and add to it (such as my wife and in-laws) is more than welcome in my book. I just don't need to constantly hear about and be constantly reminded of the old country.

It's kind of like marrying someone who is divorced and she constantly keeps talking about her first husband.

The door is open the light is on. I'd just rather you didn't sneak in a window and the rearrange the furniture.

Clear enough????

And don't call me buddy. You know nothing about me.

[dbroncos78087]

Believe what you want but markets are highly movable and always adjust. Unless they are unnaturally hampered by an outside force. If people have to work to survive, they will do those jobs. If they are given money and food they will not.

I've been self employed for almost twenty five years. When times were good I had plenty of employees. Things are pretty tough right now. Guess who mops the floor, cleans the toilets, does deliveries and takes out the trash. All that stuff still has to get done. I also figured out how to repair a lot of my own machines. Guess whose hours have doubled.

The industry I am in has changed dramatically since I began. My income is from streams that didn't exist twenty five years ago and other streams that did have gone away. I changed and moved on. Those in my industry that did not are out of business. It's a pretty simple concept really.

Without outside influences, the market adjusts.

Food stamps may not be forever but they last an awful long time. Extensions, having other relatives apply, finagling all prolong the system.

Free rides do no one any good.

And here's a question I've never been able to get an answer to…Why is it that the people on the lower economic rungs have the most children? One would think that if money is tight, it may not be a good idea to have another child. I always wonder why that is so hard to figure out.

This all sounds like a bunch of hogwash that isn't backed up by anything in the real world. I am pointing to you a real situation where your premise that people will just jump at the opportunity proved to be false and dangerous. The people who had been doing the jobs weren't getting paid, the people who were supposed to jump right in didn't get paid because they couldn't handle the work, and the businesses lost over $1B because they couldn't get the work that they needed done.

Its all well and good to talk about the industrialist citizen who will do the job and respond to the conditions in the market. It is an entirely different situation when you actually see the citizen ignore that call you expected them to take because the work doesn't pay enough and is too backbreaking for what the job does pay. Reality meets theory and its not a pretty sight.

Again you call food stamps a free ride, which again suggests you really don't know how that system works. I have had family on food stamps and it is in no way a free ride. They were expected to meet conditions set by the state in order to stay on them, which included but was not limited to seeking employment and an eventual end to that program.

As to your question about why poorer people have more children, that is a simple and obvious answer that you needed do anything but look at how families have been structured in the past to find out the answer. Children were seen as an extra set of hands to do tasks around the house and even seen as a means to an extra paycheck by having them seek a job when they reached the right age. That on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment.

[jomota]

This all sounds like a bunch of hogwash that isn't backed up by anything in the real world. I am pointing to you a real situation where your premise that people will just jump at the opportunity proved to be false and dangerous. The people who had been doing the jobs weren't getting paid, the people who were supposed to jump right in didn't get paid because they couldn't handle the work, and the businesses lost over $1B because they couldn't get the work that they needed done.

Its all well and good to talk about the industrialist citizen who will do the job and respond to the conditions in the market. It is an entirely different situation when you actually see the citizen ignore that call you expected them to take because the work doesn't pay enough and is too backbreaking for what the job does pay. Reality meets theory and its not a pretty sight.

Again you call food stamps a free ride, which again suggests you really don't know how that system works. I have had family on food stamps and it is in no way a free ride. They were expected to meet conditions set by the state in order to stay on them, which included but was not limited to seeking employment and an eventual end to that program.

As to your question about why poorer people have more children, that is a simple and obvious answer that you needed do anything but look at how families have been structured in the past to find out the answer. Children were seen as an extra set of hands to do tasks around the house and even seen as a means to an extra paycheck by having them seek a job when they reached the right age. That on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment.

"on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment"

YIKES…JESUS F'IN YIKES!!!!!
Most of these people that need "help" spend more one beer and cigarettes than the cost of condoms and birth control. You need to rethink that statement.

Food stamps…I know a family with three cars one a beemer. Their two stupid daughters generated 3 kids so the two daughters (who live with the parents) both qualify for food stamps and they are shared among one big happy family. One of the father's parents live are millionaires who live in the most exclusive part of town. There are numerous stories like this.

Alabama…give it time and it will adjust to itself.

People that won't do the job…Please read The Grapes of Wrath or watch the movie if that is easier.

Family size…"on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment"
YIKES…JESUS F'IN YIKES!!!!!
Most of these people that need "help" spend more one beer and cigarettes than the cost of condoms and birth control. You need to rethink that statement.

If you are sticking to this family size theory, you have zero credibility.

A free source of entertainment…a classic

[dbroncos78087]

"on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment"

YIKES…JESUS F'IN YIKES!!!!!
Most of these people that need "help" spend more one beer and cigarettes than the cost of condoms and birth control. You need to rethink that statement.

Food stamps…I know a family with three cars one a beemer. Their two stupid daughters generated 3 kids so the two daughters (who live with the parents) both qualify for food stamps and they are shared among one big happy family. One of the father's parents live are millionaires who live in the most exclusive part of town. There are numerous stories like this.

Alabama…give it time and it will adjust to itself.

People that won't do the job…Please read The Grapes of Wrath or watch the movie if that is easier.

Family size…"on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment"
YIKES…JESUS F'IN YIKES!!!!!
Most of these people that need "help" spend more one beer and cigarettes than the cost of condoms and birth control. You need to rethink that statement.

If you are sticking to this family size theory, you have zero credibility.

A free source of entertainment…a classic

Where did I say anything that isn't true? Sex is a free form of entertainment for families who can't afford to go out to a movie or a nice dinner. This ain't the 20s, sex is something people do for fun and not just for procreation...even though that was never actually the case we like to pretend that it was.

Well since you have one (unverifiable) instance we can extrapolate that case to every family that receives food stamps. Cut the entire program that feeds millions upon millions of families who are hit extra hard by this recession but by poverty even in the boom times of the economy because one family might be gaming the system.

We are giving Alabama time to adjust and guess what, people still aren't doing the jobs for the pay that they are providing. People running farms are offering 2-3 times minimum wage and there still aren't people willing to do the same jobs that illegal immigrants were willing to do for below minimum wage. For nearly 4-5 times the salary citizens aren't willing to do those jobs, crops are sitting in the fields rotting, and now no one is getting paid. All because a certain party wanted to demonize illegals and pretend like they were the root of all our problems.

Rest assured, one of us has no credibility and I'm sure its me...

[flips333]

"on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment"

YIKES…JESUS F'IN YIKES!!!!!
Most of these people that need "help" spend more one beer and cigarettes than the cost of condoms and birth control. You need to rethink that statement.

Food stamps…I know a family with three cars one a beemer. Their two stupid daughters generated 3 kids so the two daughters (who live with the parents) both qualify for food stamps and they are shared among one big happy family. One of the father's parents live are millionaires who live in the most exclusive part of town. There are numerous stories like this.

Alabama…give it time and it will adjust to itself.

People that won't do the job…Please read The Grapes of Wrath or watch the movie if that is easier.

Family size…"on top of the price of condoms and birth control exceeding most poorer families price range while sex remains a free source of entertainment"
YIKES…JESUS F'IN YIKES!!!!!
Most of these people that need "help" spend more one beer and cigarettes than the cost of condoms and birth control. You need to rethink that statement.

If you are sticking to this family size theory, you have zero credibility.

A free source of entertainment…a classic

Keep bringing it. This is what I want to hear. Beat the pulpit. Rally the troops who believe as you do. Please nominate another person like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQYg9dTE0vo
Putty Putty please. Cause as a Liberal if there's one thing I like more then some food stamps for my free lunch, it's destroying conservatives in national elections.

[flips333]

One thing that always irritates me is that many people compare immigrants today with those that came in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Today's immigrants seem to come here for better deal than a better way of life. Today's immigrants come here and try to recreate what they left. They not only fail to assimilate themselves into society, they do not even try. Anyone who has ever been to Miami knows what I am talking about. I suspect many areas of Los Angeles, SOCAL and Texas border cities have the same situation.

Second largest part of the Mexican economy is money being sent home from here.

Cities in Texas conducting all their business in Spanish.

Businesses in Texas accepting pesos.

The need for many city council members to be bilingual or hey can't be elected.

Other flags flying above American flags.

And on and on.

That disturbs me and I can't see that getting any better. Fast forward fifty years…Arizona, New Mexico and Southern California have super majorities of Mexicans in their population. Can they secede? Will there be issues in fairness in hiring, housing etc. for whites? Will schools be taught in English? If we ever have an armed conflict with Mexico, who in our overly hispanic military fights it?

Clearing up the illegal immigrant problem today seems so easy and huggy-feely. Just take everyone into the family. We have room and are a charitable people. However, they problems go far beyond the poor sad kids staring through the fenceline. And the politicians know it, they just don't want to talk about it.

Anyone ever wonder why elite, educated, talented, rich Mexicans aren't coming here? Just the poor, hungry, homeless are sneaking in. And it's understandable. The real problem is that Mexico, and all the other south of the border countries, do little or nothing to take care of their own people. They just export their problems to the generous giant to the north. Why are Republicans considered cold, cruel and uncharitable in their views towards immigrants but oh so little is ever said about the miserable governments those people are running away from.

My solution…find some way of giving amnesty to those already here, some sort of path to citizenship. You can't just deport everyone. Then slam the door shut and allow no more immigration unless you can prove you have something to add to society (and the ability to pick peaches does not count as adding to society. You need to have a real skill). We also need to take a hard line on visitors that overstay and disappear. Then the US government need to inflict pressure on these other countries to get their act together. Right now, we're just being laughed at.

Q…What't the difference between the Mariel Boat Lift under Carter and the present influx of illegals?

A…They now have less water to cross.

This shows a level of ignorance for history that I find HIlarious. Really you think that 1st generations up till now assimilated immediately? What a joke. It's always been this way. Come visit New York. I can point to you the enclaves of Ethnic communities and their movement as they became more assimilated or their cultures became aculturated with ours(much more effective). Polish, Italian, German, Russian, Chinese, Jews, Egyptian, you name it. Why in holy hell do you think that there are little italys, and Chinatowns, and little koreas, and Greek towns and all these ethic enclaves in every city in this nation?

You know what in the 1860 they were terrified the Irish were going to over run the country. The 1880s it was the damn Polacks, Then in the 1910s it was the WOPs. in the early 1900s scientists produced a study of the smartest to dumbest race. The dumbest race was found to be Italians. You think it was a coincidence that they were the largest immigrant group at the time of the study?

I'll leave ya with this: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb8...airie-****_fun

[stephkyle7]

I find it funny that you claim to want an assimilation into society and then are offended by being called buddy....

If you infered a sense of sarcasm in the word, that is a reflection of who YOU are.I dont need to know you to care about you...were all Americans...Right? isnt that what you are trying to say(lol)?

I agree.
anyone that comes here should learn english and adopt american customs...You cannot legislate that idea, it is unconstitutional and I get tired of listening to the RT claim an interest in constitutional principles only when it suits them.
Every single American with a ethnic identification should be putting AMERICAN first.
American African
American Korean
American Mexican
and instead of trying to infuse their culture into ours they should attempt to understand and embrace how we have come to live here.

But if they choose not to it is a founding principle of our country to allow them that right.
The movement you want has to be approached from a philosophical perspective, not out of anger or resentment, of agression...people dont respond well to that.

[flips333]

I find it funny that you claim to want an assimilation into society and then are offended by being called buddy....

If you infered a sense of sarcasm in the word, that is a reflection of who YOU are.I dont need to know you to care about you...were all Americans...Right? isnt that what you are trying to say(lol)?

I agree.
anyone that comes here should learn english and adopt american customs...You cannot legislate that idea, it is unconstitutional and I get tired of listening to the RT claim an interest in constitutional principles only when it suits them.
Every single American with a ethnic identification should be putting AMERICAN first.
American African
American Korean
American Mexican
and instead of trying to infuse their culture into ours they should attempt to understand and embrace how we have come to live here.

But if they choose not to it is a founding principle of our country to allow them that right.
The movement you want has to be approached from a philosophical perspective, not out of anger or resentment, of agression...people dont respond well to that.

I disagree wholeheartedly... Well not with the last part. We thrive best when cultures mix and change, not when one is given up for another. Should a southerner be forced to give up his southern ideals because he lives in Boston? Does a guy who grew up have to love gay culture if they move to San Fran. Does the Chicagoan have to stop loving deep dish pizza if he moves to New York. Why would one expect a chinese person to ditch their culture at the door. This has never happened in this country... it's a made up history that grumpy people say to hide their xenophobia.

[stephkyle7]

^ I believe we have grown past that as a society.
We are no longer an infant nature...and have developed our own identity as Americans.
That Identity is the Mix of cultures you are refering to IMO, and should be embraced more.
If you love this country then you should be an American First.
Im not advocating ignoring cultural or ethnic individualism, but rather ensuring that, that identification is secondary to the idea of being American.

We speak english here,not becasue it was some conspiracy, it was just the sdopted language of the country.
Did you know that in aviation every single pilot and air tarffic controller IN THE ENTIRE WORLD must communicate in english?
there is no descrimination at work, there is just a need to avoid any confusion.
Having a unique identity is great and as I said we cannot legislate morality or choose to ignore the constitution when we feel like it,But at some point I feel embracing a uniquly American identity would help bridge some of the gaps in our society.

[flips333]

^ I believe we have grown past that as a society.
We are no longer an infant nature...and have developed our own identity as Americans.
That Identity is the Mix of cultures you are refering to IMO, and should be embraced more.
If you love this country then you should be an American First.
Im not advocating ignoring cultural or ethnic individualism, but rather ensuring that, that identification is secondary to the idea of being American.

We speak english here,not becasue it was some conspiracy, it was just the sdopted language of the country.
Did you know that in aviation every single pilot and air tarffic controller IN THE ENTIRE WORLD must communicate in english?
there is no descrimination at work, there is just a need to avoid any confusion.
Having a unique identity is great and as I said we cannot legislate morality or choose to ignore the constitution when we feel like it,But at some point I feel embracing a uniquly American identity would help bridge some of the gaps in our society.

I disagree with the concept that we are that much different. English speaking is about utilitarianism not culture. Then again I have lived mostly inplaces ( Chicago, New York) where vast amounts of people are multicultural... and there are a lot of first gen immigrants from all over.

[stephkyle7]

Yeah,
I just cant agree, while im certain there are some whos motivation is what you are expressing, in a more generic perspective it is about safety,nationalism,and commonality.

feel free to retain and enjoy language and customs unique to an identitiy, but at the same time it must be acknowledged IMO, that this isnt Italy, or Mexico, or Korea.

a lot of tension would be erased If there were more things we all shared.
Learning a second language when youve chosen to live among people who dont speak yours is not a lot to ask.