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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    Points well taken on the "identity politics" stuff.

    Republicans do do that. My overall point would be that they shouldn't, and should attempt to sell the philosophy. They can't just switch from "the moocher class wants food stamps" to "let's give those poor unfortunate souls more food stamps."

    They gotta sell the ideas, and not worry about the demographics. Because you can't tailor the overall ideology to individual focus groups. It's one of the reasons I'm a right wing guy. I've always found the right wing ideas to be so much bigger than the left. The left will argue about student loan debt; the right will argue about the proper role of government. The right argues on principle, the left argues on particulars (this is coming from a right wing guy, so take it with a grain of salt.)

    But again; all of this talk really ignores how close the election was. It's tough to talk about "is the Republican party dead?" when they picked up seats in the House.
    Well shouldn't is much more of an idealistic way of phrasing it. In some areas both sides speak to all people and in some other areas they cater their message to a specific focus group audience.

    I think the Democrats pushes to expand food stamps is actually one of those areas that they push it to all people and not a specific audience. Otherwise, we wouldn't see a roughly equal proportion of the white population on food stamps as the white population is as a whole.

    But I think the way you phrased it the first time feeds into the false narrative that the GOP is looking out for everyone and the Democrats are the ones that want to divide and hurt the country. It comes from a false premise and equally false conclusion.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post

    But again; all of this talk really ignores how close the election was. It's tough to talk about "is the Republican party dead?" when they picked up seats in the House.
    Hi gcoll

    Bloomberg News

    Republicans Keep House Majority While Losing Six Seats

    Republicans retained control of the House of Representatives, losing a half-dozen seats to Democrats even as President Barack Obama won a second term and Senate Democrats expanded their majority.
    Where did this meme come from that they gained seats?

    Following the once a decade gerrymandering that favored the GOP (because of the 2010 elections) the GOP lost seats, and the total could be as much as 8 following contests in CA and Florida getting settled, both of which have GOP incumbents.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  3. #18
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    Right. House seats lost to Dems, More Senate seats lost to dems and the Dem won the presidency without even needing the 2 big swing states.


    Honestly their best chance is to continue to not work with the pres and frame the dem party by the next election for not doing anything.

  4. #19
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  5. #20
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    The GOP is completely out of touch and it's only going to get worse. I been watch many of there political analyst and most are saying that it's not there " policy's" that Hispanics have a problem with. It's just that they need someone to explain it to them better. So they are basicly saying hispanics dont "understand" and we need to dumb it down. If we talk real slow they will "understand" and they won't want immgration anymore. They are completely out of touch with minorites.


    FYI.....this years was the VERY first where their were more minorities births than whites. An these people vote 70, 80, 90 % dem.....So what does that say about the future of the GOP?
    Last edited by jayjay33; 11-09-2012 at 04:51 PM.

  6. #21
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    social programs always have been a red hairing.
    The explosion of people needing help is a direct result of the destruction of the economy,which conviniently plays into the "nanny state" nonsense that the Rs have tried and Failed to sell for the last 70 years


    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/ex...ood-stampsears.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    Hi gcoll

    Bloomberg News



    Where did this meme come from that they gained seats?

    Following the once a decade gerrymandering that favored the GOP (because of the 2010 elections) the GOP lost seats, and the total could be as much as 8 following contests in CA and Florida getting settled, both of which have GOP incumbents.
    Hm. Not sure why I thought they picked up seats. Perhaps my brain conflated "picked up seats" and "retained the majority."

    Hi Cab.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoll View Post
    hey, if I thought libertarianism could win the next election, nobody would be happier than me. I think libertarianism is still a few years off.

    It's sort of like gay marriage. It's going to happen, but being anti gay marriage is still really viable.

    I mean, you can't win an election unless you believe in God. That should be a sign that social conservatism is still alive and well.
    Fastest growing demographic in that arena. "religiously non affiliated".

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  9. #24
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    Libertarianism in its pure forms has no mainstream appeal in 2012 or going forward.

  10. #25
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    The Republicans must do this, or they risk being subjected to minority status, based on future trends.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Libertarianism in its pure forms has no mainstream appeal in 2012 or going forward.
    Hahaha you wish brother... Libertarianism is the future of the Republican Party.

    This is from the day after Ron Paul's pre-convention Rally...

    http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/pol...ating-latinos/

    Less than 12 miles away from the Republican National Convention in Tampa, Texas Rep. Ron Paul gave an impassioned farewell speech to about 8,000 raucous supporters at a farewell rally Sunday night where he declared the so-called Ron Paul Revolution was not over.
    "It made the paper in Washington that the revolution wasn't happening," Paul said as fans chanted "President Paul!" at the University of South Florida's Sun Dome on Sunday with a rock star fervor. "Don't they only wish."
    For rally organizers the real message was simple: the Republican Party needs new ideas -- and the droves of young voters and libertarian supporters can help guide the party to its "true conservative" principles and to attracting Latinos.
    They depicted the assertion by the Romney campaign that it is reaching out to Hispanics as a cynical one that turns a blind eye to how the party is treating the increasingly important voting bloc.
    "What Hispanic outreach?" quipped Fernando Cortes about the Romney campaign.
    Cortes, the deputy controller and director of the Ron Paul campaign's Hispanic Outreach Initiative, said that the campaign of presumptive GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney, and the Republican Party’s rhetoric -- particularly on immigration – was alienating Latinos.
    "In terms of Hispanic outreach, it's really hard to do when your tone is anti-Hispanic."
    Political experts say that Latino voters can make the difference in crucial battleground states like Florida, Nevada, and Colorado.
    "We want to set the tone for the rest of the convention that we are here to stay and build the party," said Cortes, 28, who expressed confidence that the movement will continue in the absence of their retiring leader.
    Cortes particularly thinks the Republican Party could win more Latino support with Paul's message of small business entrepreneurship and liberty that transcend the current party rhetoric.
    "For the first time in several decades the Republican Party is now talking about gold, the Republican Party is now talking about freedom of information," Cortes told Fox News Latino. "The presumptive nominee is speaking about auditing the fed --we have changed the discourse."
    In January, the Paul campaign kicked its Latino outreach into high gear in Nevada, where he had hoped to stir up Latino support in one of the recession’s hardest hit states.
    Then, as now, Paul's supporters had spoken about a woefully lacking outreach by the GOP to Latinos.
    Cortes told Fox News Latino in January that Paul had been running the strongest Hispanic outreach of all the GOP primary campaigns. He noted the Paul campaign’s Hispanos Por Ron Paul Facebook page as well as Paul’s Hispanic Outreach YouTube channel that included campaign advertisements subtitled in Spanish, and poll data as prime indicators that Paul was enjoying more Latino support than his GOP rivals.
    The Ron Paul farewell gathering in Florida Sunday night was a celebratory counter convention rally for Paul supporters who are still lukewarm about Romney as well as President Barack Obama.
    The six hour "We are the Future" rally was a tribute to Paul, who has run for President unsuccessfully three times. It began at noon, and didn't reach fever pitch until around 5pm when Paul addressed the crowd after hours of speeches from economists, Sen. Tom Davis of South Carolina , Paul's son Sen. of Kentucky Rand Paul, and more.
    "We'll get into the tent, believe me, because we'll become the tent eventually," Paul said of the established Republican Party that is "failing" the country but that will one day join his followers. "Once they know we are the future they will know about us."
    "The answer is not more efficient government," Paul said in his speech, which ran for slightly more than an hour. "It's getting government out of things they're not supposed to be doing."
    Meanwhile, on Monday, presumptive GOP vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan told Fox News that he feels confident that Paul's supporters would end up being "very comfortable with us."
    "We see eye to eye on a lot of issues and believe in some ... limited government," Ryan told Fox News. "We believe in academic freedom. We believe in the founding principles. We believe that this is a watershed moment for America, whether or not we're going to reclaim the American idea or we're going to become, you know, a cradle-to-the-grave welfare state, which is where I think the president is taking us."
    The crowd at the rally was filled with veterans, small government supporters and young college students, who wore Ron Paul RepubliCAN shirts, 'SuperRon' buttons which featured Paul in a superman outfit, and signs that read "I am Ron Paul."
    Some like Dawn Waters, 42, drove from Chicago despite the threat of Tropical Storm Isaac wearing three Ron Paul Buttons. A student, she planned on driving back home after Paul's speech in time for class on Monday morning.
    "I lost faith in Washington and politics…I gave up," said Waters, who said the last time she voted was when Reagan was running for office. "Ron Paul brought me back."
    Waters says she's an undecided voter this election and is having a tough time choosing between -- former Gov. Gary Johnson on the libertarian ticket or writing in Paul.
    "I don't believe in voting between the lesser of two evils," she said.
    They really could have used the latinos that had supported Ron's campaign, they could have used the independents, the libertarians, all the diversity Ron Paul brought to the table they shook off and drove out.

    They lost EVERYTHING he brought to the table because of this...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obz1OeUMdqU

    ^ That's the untold story from the convention, the part the MSM never talked about and that hardline GOPers don't understand. Our delegates representing the cause, that apparently has no power or influence and aren't the future of anything within the GOP, were railroaded by the party at its own convention. They wouldn't recognize his supporters, they wouldn't even SAY Ron Paul's name, and they wouldn't even let Ron speak. All of this shouldn't have been an issue if we were truly irrelevant.

    The disrespect they showed left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth and it's a big reason why Paul supporters either stayed home or voted for Gary Johnson and that WAS the difference...

    Furthermore, for as much as I don't like her, they did the exact same thing to Sarah Palin supporters and almost all elements of the Tea Party. THEY SHUNNED THE REAL ECONOMIC CONSERVATIVES, but more importantly they shunned the conservatives that actually won them the 2010 midterms. The GOP elite thought these people would just march on back for Romney- that's why they lost.

    Then there's this:

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/18...aul-supporters

    Florida:
    Romney loss margin - 46,666
    Ron Paul primary - 117,461

    Ohio:
    Romney loss margin - 107,241
    Ron Paul primary - 113,256

    Virginia:
    Romney loss margin - 100,499
    Ron Paul primary - 107,451

    Connecticut:
    Romney loss margin - 7,641
    Ron Paul primary - 8,032

    New Hampshire:
    Romney loss margin - 40.421
    Ron Paul primary - 56,872

    Almost all of these people either stayed home, voted for Johnson, or wrote in Ron Paul.

    What really gets me is these 5 states add up to 71 electoral votes... this was the difference. The GOP thought they could just purge a good part of their primary voting base and we'd all just hop aboard the moderation train... they underestimated both the Libertarians and Tea Party conservatives.

    We were never going to vote for someone like Mitt Romney, ever, and that's the reason they didn't carry these swing states. We were the extra push they didn't have.

    Our numbers also continue to grow and despite our size we will continue to make the difference in these swing states until our ideas and concepts are adopted- this makes us a significant future force regardless of what people want to think.

    The message of Liberty appeals to latinos, it appeals as well to the other 12million Americans who didn't vote in this election but voted in the last. It appeals to the countless other 10s of millions who are disengaged with the process entirely because there's NO DIFFERENCE between the two parties.

    What I think I get a kick out of more than anything is that Karl Rove basically pissed away 300million dollars of big donor money and got almost NO RETURN.

    Ron Paul, with almost no money in comparison, got a lot more Liberty Candidates elected to congress than Rove did... these include Senator Ted Cruz, Reps. Kerry Bentivolio, Thomas Massie, Steve Stockman, and Ted Yoho. Justin Amash, David Schweikert, Walter Jones, Jeff Flake all won re-election and Denny Rehberg almost won a Senate seat in Montana.

    Ron Paul's dinky little pac, with barely any of Rove's money, was almost 10X more effective.

    That should tell the GOP something about "electability" which Ron Paul had more of in a general election than Romney did (For the record the LP and CP agreed to run NO ONE if Ron Paul had been the nominee).

    Like it or not our minority has grown too large to ignore and we hold the key to the future of the party.

    Rand Paul is the only candidate the GOP has that can bridge this gap.

    As people like John Boehner and Bill Kristol say tax hikes aren't the end of the world and so called conservatives compromise ever further on principles they claim to represent the general GOP elector base will continue to march towards libertianism because they'll wake up to the fact their so called leaders don't give a rats *** about conservatism, or liberty, and there really isn't a difference between the two parties.

    What plays into Libertarians hands even better is that they have a lot of ideas that can get back the moderates the GOP has systematically lost...

    -They don't carry the social baggage that the far right does. Libertarians are socially liberal and will attract more independents with that message than the Christian right does.
    -Ron Paul had more minority support than the rest of the GOP field. This has been the case in the last two primaries.
    -They are not war mongering or proponents of the police start. Wars are unpopular and an out of control police state is unpopular- they are also great costs to us all financially and socially.
    -They are actually much more conservative fiscally than anything the GOP has to offer which means it will appeal to the Tea Party base more than the NeoCons will.

    These ideas of liberty appeal to people, they also appeal to the middle ground they say they're so hell bent on getting and couldn't get with Romney.

    What they can't realize is the middle ground they are looking for is a myth, what a great deal of voters want is REAL CONSERVATISM and a true decentralization of power. That's a message that can and will win.

    A gun grabbing, universal health-care passing, northeastern moderate wasn't going to win over those people that won the GOP their elections in 2010 and do represent the future of the party.

    The problem is that the GOP Elite are completely out of touch and they don't know what wins anymore. They themselves haven't won anything in 8 years.

    A party that cannot win will not sustain itself and in the same way the Democrats reinvented themselves after 2004 with Barack Obama the GOP will reinvent itself with Rand Paul in 2016. He can unite these bases together, if the Elite will let him.

    The true issue becomes that the people who run the GOP don't believe in conservatism and wouldn't dare let a real conservative win. That's why we got McCain in 2008 and Romney in 2012 and why they'll push Bush, Rubio, or Christie in 2016.

    If the GOP keep their current structure together the tireless base of real economic conservatives will keep sitting the show out and they'll keep missing those 71 electoral votes until they get it. The party is now split and the economic conservatives sure as hell aren't going to compromise. Rand Paul can bring the typical GOP voter into the Liberty fold because he doesn't carry his father's baggage and isn't as extreme on certain issues. Whatever amount of Liberty supporters are lost because he isn't his father will be more than made up for by the Tea Party, and NeoCon support bases that he'll be able to bring together.

    Libertarianism is the future of the GOP and as the currency begins to crumble further it will be the future of the country.

    Guys like Peter Theil aren't going anywhere... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNTlbOROLvk

    And I think if more people understand the message they'd get on board... restoring civil liberties, ending endless war, restoring sound money, reigning in the federal government, and ending the income tax are things that appeal to everyone. Over the next 4 years the message will continue to grow and the movement will continue to grow.

    5 years ago it was nothing but a bunch of spammers online, now it's a minority keeping the GOP from the White House, in 4 years who knows where it will be... the fact is there's no limit on how far we can go because there's no limit on the popularity of our ideas. Freedom is popular and 4 more years of Obama will only make it more appealing.
    Last edited by whitesoxfan83; 11-11-2012 at 11:58 PM.
    Son, you just don't get it, i'm talking bout TWTW!

  12. #27
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    Well that does it, the debate is settled. The guy with the "buy silver" admonition has some weblinks about how libertarianism is good and popular.

  13. #28
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    The extreme right wings of the republican party which are so useful in enflaming rage, and hatred against every demographic there is except upper middle class white males cannot win an election in a country that is no longer white,male or Upper middle class.

    is this really so hard to figure out?

    It is a bed of their own making ,and they must undo the damage of letting psyhos like Rush and Palin and Bachman drive the bus off the road.

    They and Buisness leaders will bow to the POTUS, becasue behind their empty threats to lay off more workers is a plummetting stock market that decides their compensation and net worth.
    As much as they wanted to win the dishonest austerity argument to secure future gains, they are now left with a situation where THEY WILL SUFFER right along with the american people who have been hardened by the last 12 years of corporate greed to be able to withstand any possible downturn.
    the americans workers wealth is gone..it was stolen 4 years ago.
    Now if a dal isnt struck,its the CEOs that will lose millions.
    They will call their lap dog senators and house reps and tell them to shut up and take the deal. and they will follow orders like they always do.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Well that does it, the debate is settled. The guy with the "buy silver" admonition has some weblinks about how libertarianism is good and popular.
    yup

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
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  15. #30
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    Wasn't Reagan discussing amnesty back in the mid 1980s?

    What they need to do is drop the social conservatism douchebaggery that has paugued them for the last 20 years. I think the party would at least get me back if they basically did the opposite of everythiung W did- treat the amercan taxpayer dollar as a precious resource, and not spend it on something that doesn't fulfill a critical need, or help an american citizen that can't, for whatever reason, help themselves. Get back to a "live and let live" mentality, where preaching morality could be reerved for the pulpit, and get it the **** out of government. That way, they can actually, honestly tell any american that they are welcome in the party with a straight face- no pun intended.

    Until the GOP learns to actually place the idea of individual liberty over their own individual socially conservative principles, they will continue to struggle.

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