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Thread: The PSD Party

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    I'm in tears.
    A well-reasoned and thoroughly supported argument. I find it hard to disagree!
    Visit my Blog.



    "Glad the GOP finally came out with an Obamacare alternative. Can't wait to see their alternative to the Iraq War." - @LOLGOP

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    I'm in tears.
    I'm sure if someone insulted your political viewpoints obnoxiously you'd cry that he needed a ban and that he was a stupid liberal. Oh well.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    Abortion.........This is a State issue, as nowhere in the Constitution does the Federal Government have any authority on this issue. This is also a benefit to freedom as the people would have more choices. Some States would allow it and some wouldn't. But people could a vote with their feet this way. Having 9 people in Black Robes dictating to 300 million Americans isn't freedom to me.

    Welfare..........This is equivalent to theft. In order for one person to get something from Government, it must be stolen from someone else under the threat of force. Force is Not Freedom. No one has the right to initiate force upon someone else ( including Government ) in a Free Society.
    I am equally opposed to Corporate welfare. Again this is Government taking our money under the threat of force to give to Private Businesses.

    Economy.......We as a Nation need to get back to a truly Free Market. Government intervention into the Market in so many ways has destroyed the economy. Lobbyists buy Congress to create regulations helping Big Business and keeping out Competition from other. Not to mention all the Millions upon Millions of regulations that make it impossible for smaller companies to flourish....Way to many hoops to jump through to get anything done. Taxes must also be cut drastically. Government must also be cut to offset this.
    If the Government would get out of the way the Free Market would Thrive!.........The Federal Reserve Inflating the Currency is also a Major problem for the economy. The market must also set the Interest rates......Not private bankers.

    Energy........The Market has determined that Fossil Fuels are the most efficient way to power our daily lives for now. If alternative energy sources were a good idea the Private Businesses would have already invested. When the Government gives our money to these companies , subsidizing alternative energy it is just money down the rat hole.

    Education......The Federal Government has no business or authority to be involved in Educating the Citizens children. Like any other Goods or Services the Free Market does it best through competition. Cell phones and TV's quality has gone way up over the years and the Cost has come way down. That's due to Competition.
    A Government monopoly like education , the Quality ( test scores ) remain flat or have gone down and the cost is through the Roof! It should at least be left to the States to deal with. The more local the choices are the better.

    Taxes......The money is always best left in the hands of the Private Sector, and not in the hands of the Government. Government needs to be cut back to it's Constitutional Mandate and taxes need to go away. Get rid of the IRS and the Income tax. There is no need for an income tax. In fact there wasn't one until 1913....The same year the Federal Reserve came to be.....

    I'll take this country back.
    Working in reverse order

    Taxes...To take your statement about money, always best left in the hands of the Private Sector, then accepting your words as written, it would be better to have nothing but private militias, private police forces, private courts etc. Always means always, unless, you would like to modify that statement.

    Education... Again you obviously feel that public education is wrong, so, in your world as you are describing it, the poor will be a permanent underclass.If you are struggling to pay the rent, buy food, there would be no money for education. Children could go work in the workhouses.

    Energy...The market did not determine that fossil fuels were the best form of energy. Oil depletion allowances promoted oil. Roads to transport the oil, paid for by the tax payers paid for oil. Etc. Now, with the same kind of encouragement for other fuels, in a similar position, the scream of market is without historical perspective.

    Economy... A truly free market, without regulation, has never functioned. Teddy Roosevelt was the trust buster. Oligarchies are the tendency in lands without rules. Insider trading makes the markets perform without trust. Rivers literally burn because of pollution (cuyhoga river fire). People die because of lack of safety standards (not just coal mines, look up The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire) (look up Foxcon in China). You can have your regulation free world, I like not having rivers on fire, air I can breathe, safe working conditions, transparency in markets, etc.

    Welfare...When the time comes, that every man and woman starts with the same opportunity, which they don't (Warren Buffet calls it winning the womb lottery) then you might have a case. But they don't so you don't.

    Abortion... It is not a state question when to limit it limits an individuals rights of control of their own personhood. This is where that whole question comes from. Once again, we live in a Republic, not a confederation of states.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Abortion
    Absolutely. Covered by insurance, available in clinics that receive funds from the government.

    Welfare
    It's always interesting to me to watch successful people come out against Welfare. It's one thing to say something is unnecessary when you've had no need of it, quite another to be eating tonight because of it. In any system there will be people that abuse it, whether welfare from the government or charity from a church. How that is an argument against the system itself, which it seems to me is unquestionably necessary, is beyond me.

    Economy
    I'm in favor of it? I'm not really sure what to put here. Go economy!

    Energy
    I break with a lot of my fellow Democrats and leftists in supporting more nuclear power, but that includes the development of better and safer nuclear reactors, and an honest discussion about the benefits and dangers. None of that is happening as it should. We should also invest, heavily, in alternative energies. Corn ethanol is a loser. Solar isn't, yet. The fact that millions of Joules of energy pours into our deserts every second of every day and it isn't soaked up by solar panels is an absurd waste, and one we should be working to fix. We need higher fuel efficiency standards, more research into "green" technology, and the ability to trust scientists when they reach a consensus on something.

    Education
    The idea that education is local just strikes me as blindingly stupid. Potential in a child should not be wasted because he's born in Mississippi instead of Massachusetts. Religion, of course, has no place in the class room, and there should be zero hesitation on the part of educators to teach the science as we know. Evolution happened, climate change is happening, and students should learn these things.

    Homeland Security
    I don't have the answers to balance security with freedom, and I don't really know that anyone else does either.

    Healthcare
    The idea that other countries can give their citizens "free" health care while we cannot is short-sighted, naive, and wrong. We need to get beyond our "America is the most specialist!" attitude and look to the way other countries do things that work. The simple fact is, every time someone dies because of something that could've been treated, but wasn't due to economics, it is a tragedy. Plain and simple. There's just no reason for it. People complain about health care costs, and then don't want to pay for things like preventative care and care for the poor that could bring so much of it down. I'm sorry if keeping your neighbor healthy means you get a Tall instead of a Venti at Starbucks next time (I'm not, actually, sorry).

    Nuclear Energy/Missiles
    More of it.

    Stem Cell Research
    This sort of goes into the healthcare thing. The potential for so many therapies, treatments, and cures are in stem cells, and almost entirely for non-political, non-scientific beliefs it is being stopped. Eff that. Research the hell out of this. Research it all the time, everywhere.

    Taxes
    I'm not going to pretend to have even some of the answers here. I think those at the top need to be taxed more, those in the middle less. But economics is far from my strong suit, so...

    Environment
    Let's not do anything about it. Let's just let things take their course. Who needs polar bears and coastal cities, right?

    War/Foreign Relations
    I'm torn on this. Iraq was pretty clearly a mistake, Afghanistan at least a little more necessary, but both are a mess. That said, when something like Rwanda happens, I think it is our duty as members of the human race to intervene. I don't care about all this "we shouldn't be the police of the world" ********. If genocide is happening, it must be stopped. Eddie Izzard, though a comedian, hit the nail right on the head: "Kill your own people and we're pretty much fine with it. It's when you start killing other people that we have a problem." It's true, and it's ridiculous. I'm not saying we go in for decades, we start nation building, or any of that. But Rwanda, Darfur.. these things cannot happen while we sit idly by, and only afterwards say "never again!" Of course, all we really mean is "never again... until the next time it happens and we say all this over again."

    Gay Marriage
    I'm pretty much over talking about this. If you do not support marriage equality, you are a bigot and I'm not terribly interested in exchanging ideas on this with you. History will look back on you and shake it's head sadly, just as we do with other civil rights issues from our past.
    I agree with you on all of this except that I don't think we need more nuclear missiles (although you might have been joking on that) nor do I think that we should continue to interfere in other country's affairs. You brought up the issue of genocide, but for the most part, the only times we've aided in preventing a genocide was when it was somehow in the US's best interests. When we interfere, we automatically turn one party against us (ie Palestine) and it's a waste of our money and resources. However, I do believe that the United Nations needs to step up and take a more powerful role in aiding and condemning those it sees fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    I have trouble thinking about the idea of denying a person an abortion simply because they live in a certain state. Just doesn't really make any sense..



    So I should go murder someone, and under your logic no one has the right to impose force to stop me by law or physical strength?



    Why don't you think the government should make an effort to invest in clean energy sources? Fossil fuels are not unlimited resources..



    No, that's due to innovation in the technological field.
    The traditional American philosophy teaches that government must be limited in power if Individual Liberty is to be safeguarded, if each Individual's God-given, unalienable rights are to be made and kept enduringly secure.

    The main purpose of the government is to Protect the nation from foreign threats.

    Every state should have it's own laws that appeal to it's citizens. Then if you do not like the laws in that state, you either elect new representatives to change those laws, or you move to another state.


    You're taking what I sad out of context, lib.



    It should be developed by private enterprise,not the corrupt government who has used our tax dollars for investment and then the companies belly up and we lose millions of dollars that could have been used for other needs.When new products or services are developed the private sector money is used. If it fails,the tax payer is not on the hook for losing money,just the private investors.Beside, private enterprises have and always will be more successful than government controlled enterprises. SS,Medicare and Fema are examples of failed government control programs..
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    The traditional American philosophy teaches that government must be limited in power if Individual Liberty is to be safeguarded, if each Individual's God-given, unalienable rights are to be made and kept enduringly secure.

    The main purpose of the government is to Protect the nation from foreign threats.

    Every state should have it's own laws that appeal to it's citizens. Then if you do not like the laws in that state, you either elect new representatives to change those laws, or you move to another state.


    You're taking what I sad out of context, lib.



    It should be developed by private enterprise,not the corrupt government who has used our tax dollars for investment and then the companies belly up and we lose millions of dollars that could have been used for other needs.When new products or services are developed the private sector money is used. If it fails,the tax payer is not on the hook for losing money,just the private investors.Beside, private enterprises have and always will be more successful than government controlled enterprises. SS,Medicare and Fema are examples of failed government control programs..
    The experiment of limited government on the level you are thinking of. The Articles of the Confederation were that experiment and failed miserably.

    This country is predicated on a social contract between individuals, their state, and the federal government. It has always been this way starting from the founding.

    We have a federalist system that builds on a compact between the people and the states as well as the states and the federal government and by the transitive property, the people and the federal government.

    I still don't know where this notion that we are all on the frontier comes from in our society.
    Member of the Owlluminati!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    The traditional American philosophy teaches that government must be limited in power if Individual Liberty is to be safeguarded, if each Individual's God-given, unalienable rights are to be made and kept enduringly secure.
    Sure, you're right. This isn't a confederation, though. Abortion should be a countrywide issue and you know it.

    The main purpose of the government is to Protect the nation from foreign threats.
    That would be the military..

    Every state should have it's own laws that appeal to it's citizens. Then if you do not like the laws in that state, you either elect new representatives to change those laws, or you move to another state.
    Again, this isn't a confederation. We've seen how well these ideas have worked out in the past..

    You're taking what I sad out of context, lib.
    No, I really wasn't. Oh well, though; you're right I guess. I'm just a stupid lib.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    Abortion.........This is a State issue, as nowhere in the Constitution does the Federal Government have any authority on this issue. This is also a benefit to freedom as the people would have more choices. Some States would allow it and some wouldn't. But people could a vote with their feet this way. Having 9 people in Black Robes dictating to 300 million Americans isn't freedom to me.
    The Right to Privacy is implied in the Fourth Amendment which is what Roe v. Wade was ruled under. Therefore, the federal government does have the authority to stop states from interfering in a woman's right to choose.

    Welfare..........This is equivalent to theft. In order for one person to get something from Government, it must be stolen from someone else under the threat of force. Force is Not Freedom. No one has the right to initiate force upon someone else ( including Government ) in a Free Society.
    I am equally opposed to Corporate welfare. Again this is Government taking our money under the threat of force to give to Private Businesses.
    Equating welfare to theft is simply stupid. I'm not even going to bother with this.

    Economy.......We as a Nation need to get back to a truly Free Market. Government intervention into the Market in so many ways has destroyed the economy. Lobbyists buy Congress to create regulations helping Big Business and keeping out Competition from other. Not to mention all the Millions upon Millions of regulations that make it impossible for smaller companies to flourish....Way to many hoops to jump through to get anything done. Taxes must also be cut drastically. Government must also be cut to offset this.
    If the Government would get out of the way the Free Market would Thrive!.........The Federal Reserve Inflating the Currency is also a Major problem for the economy. The market must also set the Interest rates......Not private bankers.
    We have never in our history been a free market system. We have always had a mixed economy and it is still that to this day. Although socialism is considered somewhat of a taboo term, there are bits of socialism that are good for societies just as there are bits of free-market systems that are bad. That's why mixed economy's try to get the good in both.

    Without government intervention in General Motors, the entire auto industry (meaning other companies that supply goods to GM) would collapse in the US and GM would have likely been bought out by foreign investors. Those foreign investors, we'll say they're from China, would then move all of GM's factories to China where they can pay lower wages and likely get increased production. This would have caused the US unemployment rate to soar and likely would have caused at least another recession likely worse than the one in 2008.

    You also talked about government regulations and how, you believe, they hurt small business owners. I honestly don't know where your view is coming from since it does just the opposite. Regulations prevent monopolization, promote perfect competition, and allow firms the freedom of entry and exit. The view that they somehow hurt small businesses is simply ridiculous.

    Energy........The Market has determined that Fossil Fuels are the most efficient way to power our daily lives for now. If alternative energy sources were a good idea the Private Businesses would have already invested. When the Government gives our money to these companies , subsidizing alternative energy it is just money down the rat hole.
    I could give less of a **** about how the market feels about fossil fuels. They're terrible for the environment and for humans in general. There was recently a study done on pollution in cities such as New York and Los Angeles, and scientists found that, when looking at the lungs of a person who had been smoking for twenty years and the lungs of a person who had been simply living in a large city for ten years, there was hardly any difference between the two. That's ridiculous. And do you know what cancer type has the highest mortality rate among men and women in the US? Lung cancer. The mere fact that we're killing ourselves slowly should be enough to endorse investing in alternative energy sources. It's not wasted money, it's a damn good investment.

    Education......The Federal Government has no business or authority to be involved in Educating the Citizens children. Like any other Goods or Services the Free Market does it best through competition. Cell phones and TV's quality has gone way up over the years and the Cost has come way down. That's due to Competition.
    A Government monopoly like education , the Quality ( test scores ) remain flat or have gone down and the cost is through the Roof! It should at least be left to the States to deal with. The more local the choices are the better.
    Being a college student, I trust the federal government with my education more than my nearly bankrupt state. And I'd like to see your evidence supporting that test score have remained flat.
    Taxes......The money is always best left in the hands of the Private Sector, and not in the hands of the Government. Government needs to be cut back to it's Constitutional Mandate and taxes need to go away. Get rid of the IRS and the Income tax. There is no need for an income tax. In fact there wasn't one until 1913....The same year the Federal Reserve came to be.....
    Income tax is the chief tax that allows the government to provide services to its citizens. I would bet my left nut that you've in some way benefited from there being an income tax. And I trust the government with my money more than I do individuals in the private sector. See AIG as a reference.

    I'll take this country back.
    Yep, it's been determined. This is going to be my nightmare tonight.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhornfan1234 View Post
    You're taking what I sad out of context, lib.
    Why do you insist upon doing this? When you address people with disrespect it actually hurts your argument. You started a thread about compromise but you treat half the country with disdain. Why should I take anything you say seriously when it is clear you disrespect me? What to know what it will take for compromise? People who refuse to be dicks to one another would be a good ****ing start.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPoon
    man with hair like fire can destroy souls with a twitch of his thighs.

  10. #40
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    ewing

    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Abortion
    Absolutely. Covered by insurance, available in clinics that receive funds from the government.



    Welfare
    It's always interesting to me to watch successful people come out against Welfare. It's one thing to say something is unnecessary when you've had no need of it, quite another to be eating tonight because of it. In any system there will be people that abuse it, whether welfare from the government or charity from a church. How that is an argument against the system itself, which it seems to me is unquestionably necessary, is beyond me.

    Economy
    I'm in favor of it? I'm not really sure what to put here. Go economy!

    Energy
    I break with a lot of my fellow Democrats and leftists in supporting more nuclear power, but that includes the development of better and safer nuclear reactors, and an honest discussion about the benefits and dangers. None of that is happening as it should. We should also invest, heavily, in alternative energies. Corn ethanol is a loser. Solar isn't, yet. The fact that millions of Joules of energy pours into our deserts every second of every day and it isn't soaked up by solar panels is an absurd waste, and one we should be working to fix. We need higher fuel efficiency standards, more research into "green" technology, and the ability to trust scientists when they reach a consensus on something.

    Education
    The idea that education is local just strikes me as blindingly stupid. Potential in a child should not be wasted because he's born in Mississippi instead of Massachusetts. Religion, of course, has no place in the class room, and there should be zero hesitation on the part of educators to teach the science as we know. Evolution happened, climate change is happening, and students should learn these things.

    Homeland Security
    I don't have the answers to balance security with freedom, and I don't really know that anyone else does either.

    Healthcare
    The idea that other countries can give their citizens "free" health care while we cannot is short-sighted, naive, and wrong. We need to get beyond our "America is the most specialist!" attitude and look to the way other countries do things that work. The simple fact is, every time someone dies because of something that could've been treated, but wasn't due to economics, it is a tragedy. Plain and simple. There's just no reason for it. People complain about health care costs, and then don't want to pay for things like preventative care and care for the poor that could bring so much of it down. I'm sorry if keeping your neighbor healthy means you get a Tall instead of a Venti at Starbucks next time (I'm not, actually, sorry).

    Nuclear Energy/Missiles
    More of it.

    Stem Cell Research
    This sort of goes into the healthcare thing. The potential for so many therapies, treatments, and cures are in stem cells, and almost entirely for non-political, non-scientific beliefs it is being stopped. Eff that. Research the hell out of this. Research it all the time, everywhere.

    Taxes
    I'm not going to pretend to have even some of the answers here. I think those at the top need to be taxed more, those in the middle less. But economics is far from my strong suit, so...

    Environment
    Let's not do anything about it. Let's just let things take their course. Who needs polar bears and coastal cities, right?

    War/Foreign Relations
    I'm torn on this. Iraq was pretty clearly a mistake, Afghanistan at least a little more necessary, but both are a mess. That said, when something like Rwanda happens, I think it is our duty as members of the human race to intervene. I don't care about all this "we shouldn't be the police of the world" ********. If genocide is happening, it must be stopped. Eddie Izzard, though a comedian, hit the nail right on the head: "Kill your own people and we're pretty much fine with it. It's when you start killing other people that we have a problem." It's true, and it's ridiculous. I'm not saying we go in for decades, we start nation building, or any of that. But Rwanda, Darfur.. these things cannot happen while we sit idly by, and only afterwards say "never again!" Of course, all we really mean is "never again... until the next time it happens and we say all this over again."

    Gay Marriage
    I'm pretty much over talking about this. If you do not support marriage equality, you are a bigot and I'm not terribly interested in exchanging ideas on this with you. History will look back on you and shake it's head sadly, just as we do with other civil rights issues from our past.

    Hey Nate i agree with most of what you said

    Abortion I agree

    Welfare I agree with everything you said. That said i do think that the way people look at welfare these days is problematic. My father was a liberal union leader however i'm sure he would be ashamed if he had to go on the "dole". Getting a handout doesn't seem to hit peoples pride as much these days

    Econ Lets do it

    Energy I think you know more then me and your points make sense to me


    Education I strongly disagree. I don't think our kids should have to learn about evolution at all if they choose a different track and apply themselves. I think our schools need to be less standardized and provide more choices to students. I think they need more links with the local communities and employers. I think federal intervention creates a climate that makes what should happen harder to achieve.

    Homeland security I don't invite myself into other peoples homes. We should start there. Overall i don't have an ideology though

    Heath care everyone should be able to get care. I don't know what the best way to do that is

    Nukes my guess is we have enough missiles. i'm not against power

    Stems Never understood why this was a issue. Do research and try to cure cancer

    Taxes Bring them down. I not saying stop helping people but cut spending and bring them down. Stop building bases, putting cameras on every corner and light, dressing suburban cops up like Freddy the Dare dog to scare little Johnny. I look at my check and my surroundings and the conclusion i draw is the gov't is doing too many things and i'm paying for it

    Environment really all for it.

    Foreign relations I agree but after we stop the genocide will have no responsibility to help build a gov't. Once its not genocide let them fight it out

    Gay Marriage So long as there is an open bar
    Last edited by ewing; 11-21-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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  11. #41
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    My party is the Pants Party.

    I will also do the opposite of what Longhorn said to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Gay Marriage So long as there is an open bar
    haha agreed

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    So glad i'm not american, your politics are so messy.

    The only points that concern me are social issues.. Abortion, Gay Marriage, oh and legalizing Marijuana.




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    Abortion
    Allow Abortion. Allow stem cell. Under 18 abortion is a bit more tricky. No goverment payment for abortion.

    Welfare
    We need to limit welfare. Certainly we should help those who really need help. But college kids shouldn't get food stamps and such.

    Economy
    We need to make this country into the place where people want to do business here. You do that by heavy penalties on jobs overseas, and big tax breaks on jobs in this country. Get rid of the federal reserve as well.

    Energy
    The hope is that solar power will be efficient enough soon. I know we're not there yet but lets hope we do get there. The idea is we really need to push something that has much more long term sustainability then oil. Tidal power, while not helping everyone, is interesting as well.

    Education
    We dont need the federal government giving out orders for funding. No child left behind? How about no child allowed foward. Let the states do what they want. What that will do is create 50 different ideas on how to educate. States then can decide what works and what doesn't. The fed doesn't allow for that type of progress.

    Homeland Security
    Get out of all these other countries. A lot of empires fall when troops are stretched too thin. There is room for a CIA, but I dont agree with the way ours works. Long story short: Gather intel, don't occupy other countries and follow the golden rule "treat other how you want to be treated" Can you guys imagine how we'd react if other countries did to us as we do to them? Its absurd. We need to cut the military severely as well. You know where soem of the most dangerous places on earth are? In Mexico. We need more protection on the border.
    Healthcare
    I personally dont believe anyone has a right to anyone elses services. Thats not the way a free society works. We need to find a way to reduce health costs. Then let the free market handle it from there.

    Stem Cell Research
    Absolutely.
    Taxes
    in an ideal word, I'd like to see a small flat tax rate. Everyone pays the same percentage. Close loopholes to these rich bastards who find a way to dodge paying it.
    Environment
    Lets face it guys, a better environment is better for everyone. We should all, as individuals, do day to day things that improve the environment. Global warming is here, and scientist agree. A global effort is needed to thrawt this type of problem. Its tricky though. What if the chinese refuse to meed environmental standards? Do we attack them? I just dont have all the answers here. What I do know is a lot of human habits are very much unsustainable. We, as the human race, need to look into some of these issues.
    War/Foreign Relations
    Hands off. We need not to be in EVERYONES business. We cant afford it, and as a general rule its just kind of annoying. Cut all foreign aid. Be an example to these countries.
    Political Corruption
    It will never happen, but every individual should be an independent. No parties just people. Wouldn't that be great?

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    Healthcare
    I personally dont believe anyone has a right to anyone elses services. Thats not the way a free society works. We need to find a way to reduce health costs. Then let the free market handle it from there.
    What do you even mean by this? If everyone pays a little bit then when you get seriously sick and can't afford the expensive treatments it doesn't matter because you have been contributing. Healthcare can't just be FREE, the money has to come from somewhere.




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