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  1. #1
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    More corporate fraud suspected in Oil Industry

    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...BWkZMhOUIHnXig

    So, for the second time I would like any Rt. Leaning minds out there explain to me why Government is to be feared and controlled, yet Corporations, which are more wealthy and weild more power then almost any government agency is our friend?


    Bottom line...The Market is rigged and manipulated all the time by the 1%.
    They amke the rules and bend them to ensure the win and stay on top.
    Government is your only defense against financial slavery.

    Some of you talk about Government dependence through Programs, while you happily exist at the mercy of a "free" market which is about as Free, or Fair as a Las Vegas Casino.
    Ive got news for you guys...Vegas is there becasue you dont win.
    When they built The Lexor, they paid for it in cash.

    At some point you need to wake up and understand, it isnt your ideology thats wrong, its the implementation of it that cannot overcome human nature by itself.
    there must be Government oversite and Regulation which unfortunately means "bigger" Government.
    Other wise you get Enron, and Banking scandals and this latest twisting of the Supply side economic theory....Ir doesnt work, because of who we are.

  2. #2
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    Don't condemn everyone by the actions of a few. And it appears the government is starting to take action. Break the rules and end up in orange suits.


    Come to psd where admitted dupes who do nothing but troll the gd and fs forum are free. But man don't you dare mention trolling on someone's wall.

  3. #3
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    What a huge surprise!!!!!!!!!!

  4. #4
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    I'd be interested to see what the investigationa actually reveals. I believe as of two years ago there were 159 refineries in the states, with no new refineries having been constructed since the 1970s. Since then, Sunoco and others have started closing some of them down because they are too expensive to run in the states. While this isn't good at all, it only makes it worse of companies are running refineries while claiming they are down to inflate prices.

    The ony thing is, that would be ****ing impossible to mask. Its pretty ****ing esy to see if a refinery is running. Let's think of what might be a clue...Look at the parking lot. Is it full? Anything coming out of the stacks? Is the refinery drawing power consistent with standard operations? Is refined product being added to the storage tanks, and being transported out?

    Thayat raaahht theyrze rokit saahnce.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by behindmydesk View Post
    Don't condemn everyone by the actions of a few. And it appears the government is starting to take action. Break the rules and end up in orange suits.
    True, some companies operate legitimately while others don't. But when capitalism is king in a society, when business controls gov't rather than the other way around, you are guaranteed to have a system which is inherently corrupt. I think it is very naive to think otherwise.
    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  6. #6
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    While the number of refineries has been fairly static, the refining capacity has gone up rather dramatically. In 1985 they had capacity of 11,983Mbbl/d which has grown to 15,683 Mbbl/d.

    This growth in capacity is really what the discussion should be about. Who really cares how many refineries there are, as compared to how much they can refine.

    US Energy Information Administration

    As of September, they were operating at 87.5% capacity. We are not in need of new refineries at this time. Given the MPG increase in cars, it might be that we will never need new refineries.
    Here is the question of the day, does anyone think that wealthy people should pay a lower percentage of their income to taxes than middle class people? Don't argue tax brackets, just a simple question. Do you think someone earning 46 million dollars should pay a lower percentage of their income than say someone earning sixty thousand?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabernetluver View Post
    While the number of refineries has been fairly static, the refining capacity has gone up rather dramatically. In 1985 they had capacity of 11,983Mbbl/d which has grown to 15,683 Mbbl/d.

    This growth in capacity is really what the discussion should be about. Who really cares how many refineries there are, as compared to how much they can refine.

    US Energy Information Administration

    As of September, they were operating at 87.5% capacity. We are not in need of new refineries at this time. Given the MPG increase in cars, it might be that we will never need new refineries.
    Becasue, as I said, oil companies are starting to shut them down. And whatever capacity they are running at, are they meeting demand? Can't be if the oil companies are balming refinery capacity every time we have a storm or one goes off line. Additionally, not every refinery refines the same product, or produces the ame product.

  8. #8
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    The story,for those that didnt read it thoroughly, involves the shuttering of refinerys as a cause of price increases.
    During the time frame in question, oil production was up, crude prices were down, surplusses of refined gas were up...yet prices went up in CA.

    When asked to explain this obvious deversion from the principles of the "free" market,or supply and demand, the Oil companies said it was because two refinerys were down for maintenance affecting supply, and Futures markets.

    Enviormental impact surveys showed elevated levels of CO2, in short, the refinery waqs still producing gas at full output levels.

    heres some more to consider
    :http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...KfBKZVpr3K3ULg


    so once again, This particular case is of little interest to me, I want those of you who are "free market" conservatives, who distrust Government and want to lessen regulations, and shrink government explain how a Corporation is anything less then a defacto government agency?

    You are worried Government will be to powerful, intrusive,effective and controlling in your daily life....thats exactly what large companies do, so help me to understand the difference that makes you pitch such a fit?

  9. #9
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    13 hours without an explaination.......
    Come on fellas, if their is an answer, Id love to hear it.

    Buisnesses=good
    Government=bad


    Why?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    13 hours without an explaination.......
    Come on fellas, if their is an answer, Id love to hear it.

    Buisnesses=good
    Government=bad


    Why?
    Folks are bashful?

    I would wager neither government nor business should be granted unfettered priviledge. I would also wager almost everyone here would agree with that, and that it isn't a question of one being good and one bad, but rather where should the balamce of priviledge should e struck for each.

    I would favor an approach where pragmatic, less restrictive approach to business, and a minimalist approach to government. But when it comes to corporate fraud, I would prefer the penalty to be severe.
    Last edited by Patsfan56; 12-01-2012 at 09:49 PM.

  11. #11
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    thanx pats, my intent isnt to embarrass or insult anyone...Im trying to proke thought....see we take sides like we pick between Ford or Chevy, or the Giants and Jets

    People present Ideas to us and we just run with them without considering things.
    Im a R, or Im a D...well...why?
    And then every canned ,programmed response weve picked up from our parents or the radio, or the TV comes spewing out as if we REALLY know whats going on.

    Corporations OWN politicians...in essence they are almost the same entities.
    So we gripe back and forth at each other about little slivers of what we do with tax money, when the BIG BANANAS, are drained out of the economy from both sides....they take turns...BofA for 4 years, Wells fargo for the next 8, Shell for 8 years, BP for the four after that, the only thing decided in our election process is whos turn it is to screw us.
    This isnt the Governments fault alone...we must, must, must have a constitutional amendment redefining lobbying, money, affiliations,stock ownership,conflicts of interest,and the like, to ensure that we get the right people who have a passion for leadership and governance based on the peoples will, not financing a campaign or future job prospects.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    The story,for those that didnt read it thoroughly, involves the shuttering of refinerys as a cause of price increases.
    During the time frame in question, oil production was up, crude prices were down, surplusses of refined gas were up...yet prices went up in CA.

    When asked to explain this obvious deversion from the principles of the "free" market,or supply and demand, the Oil companies said it was because two refinerys were down for maintenance affecting supply, and Futures markets.

    Enviormental impact surveys showed elevated levels of CO2, in short, the refinery waqs still producing gas at full output levels.

    heres some more to consider
    :http://www.google.com/url?q=http://e...KfBKZVpr3K3ULg


    so once again, This particular case is of little interest to me, I want those of you who are "free market" conservatives, who distrust Government and want to lessen regulations, and shrink government explain how a Corporation is anything less then a defacto government agency?

    You are worried Government will be to powerful, intrusive,effective and controlling in your daily life....thats exactly what large companies do, so help me to understand the difference that makes you pitch such a fit?
    The irony here is you scream about how they aren't honoring the "free market" with the price of the gas going up when the crude oil prices were down sharply, but we deny the Oil companies the ability to even base their business on free market.

    If we had a true free market Gas would be WAY more expensive. They would absolutely Jack up the price of oil and gas, what are we going to do? Not pay and forgo cars?
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  13. #13
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    Holy smokes!

    Can you IMAGINE?

    Your point is valid ,but only further illustrates the point of my premise.
    Power is the true danger to freedom.Power isnt only represented through Government, Corporations have power as well, sometimes too much power.
    It doesnt have to be exclusively in a monopoly for it to be detrimental to our freedom and our economy.

    Oil company profits in the first q of 2011 were 20 billion dollars fro the top three companies combined...just the first quarter.

    If we didnt regulate them ,they would quickly strangle out profits from every other industry.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    Holy smokes!

    Can you IMAGINE?

    Your point is valid ,but only further illustrates the point of my premise.
    Power is the true danger to freedom. Power isnt only represented through Government, Corporations have power as well, sometimes too much power.
    It doesnt have to be exclusively in a monopoly for it to be detrimental to our freedom and our economy.

    Oil company profits in the first q of 2011 were 20 billion dollars fro the top three companies combined...just the first quarter.

    If we didnt regulate them ,they would quickly strangle out profits from every other industry.
    I agree with your fundamental principle against unmitigated power but the solution to stopping corporations from abusing power is to not give all of it to the government.

    The truth is Power cannot be corrupted without people doing the corrupting. People with unlimited or substantial power are what we should guard against.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
    Quote Originally Posted by mariner4life View Post
    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
    My fanbase is growing.

  15. #15
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    Didn't the government just witness this event as well? If they did what exactly are they going to do about it?

    Creating more and more government offices and regulations are not going to stop this if the agencies don't actually do something about it. The agencies won't act because once it runs up the food chain everyone looks at how their investment portfolio could be affected if voted one way or the other.

    They won't, the wolfs in charge at the hen house and all we do is fund it.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

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