How long will it take?

[bagwell368]

I'm not sure they need two new guys. If they could swing a deal for someone like Jefferson without giving up too much. Ideally I'd like to keep KG, Bass, Wilcox together and add Jefferson to the mix. Dreaming, probably, but I would package a guard, Sullinger, Melo, picks..... Try to keep Joseph if at all possible.

I think Bird Fan would settle for one 4/5 if it was Jefferson, and we KNEW KG and Wilcox would remain healthy, and add some C- big at the deadline to eat minutes in games that are gone one way or the other.

But just to match Jefferson's money Green & Bass would seem to have to be included. Sully and Melo don't make enough. Then Bradley and/or a #1 to give the needed hope going forward. We might have to toss in Lee to get back 1 or 2 minor salary dump players to make the deal work.

This isn't a tweek here or there. It's a wholesale major move.

OR:

The no rebound thing works if you have guys that shoot crazy FG like KG/PP/RA in 2007-2008. Right now we are at the back of the top 1/4 of the league in FG%/eFG% and have good DReb. But everything else is pretty much average vs the league except the OReb which is poor. OTOH Doc wants them back down court to play D. That theory should work better when Bradley comes back well, and the D will pick up, and maybe create another 3-5 pts a night in TOV's, which would translate to a better record going forward - maybe even start playing .575-.600 ball. That's nice. The question is what happens in the playoffs, which leads me and Bird Fan back to a big trade for a very effective big.

[Opalmerr]

So, We were watching the Maine Red Claws last night and I commented that it's nice to have a "minor league" team where the guys play in the same systems. It was at that point I realized the Red Claws play the same systems and get out rebounded just like the Celtics do.

Actually, one of the reasons I have been watching the Red Claws is to see if their might be any help "down on the farm", be it Maine or some other team. Wright and Downs are both rebounding well but at 6'8"... well, the Celtics have Bass and Sullinger at similar heights who likely would rebound that well or better in the D-League.

Do the systems the Celtics run lead to rebounding issues?

We know the Celtics eschew offensive rebounding preferring to "get back" on defense.

But is there something within the defensive scheme / rotations that puts the Celtics at a disadvantage in rebounding? With the emphasis on "getting back" and playing good defense one would think they should own the defensive boards, but offensive rebounds allowed is often an issue with this team.

Or is it simply a matter of not making boxing out a POE in Boston nor in Maine?

[Opalmerr]

Doc's got it wrong.

He has taken Pierce and put him into Allen's role. This might make some sense given Pierce has seemingly lost his ability to explosively get to the basket like he once did. Plus Pierce is a pretty fair spot up shooter especially when he can step into a shot.

But what about on defense? He's still being asked to guard opposing 3's .... if his legs are failing him on offense?

Wouldn't the more natural move be to play Pierce at the 4? Yeah, he would be undersized (short) but I think he would still be quick enough to cause problems offensively and big enough to defend, especially against the "stretch 4's" that are so prevalent now.

I think we see some of this when Doc has gone KG, Pierce, Green, Lee and one of Rondo /Terry/ Barbosa.... a line up that has been productive in the short spurts they have played together.

[bagwell368]

Doc's got it wrong.

He has taken Pierce and put him into Allen's role. This might make some sense given Pierce has seemingly lost his ability to explosively get to the basket like he once did. Plus Pierce is a pretty fair spot up shooter especially when he can step into a shot.

But what about on defense? He's still being asked to guard opposing 3's .... if his legs are failing him on offense?

Wouldn't the more natural move be to play Pierce at the 4? Yeah, he would be undersized (short) but I think he would still be quick enough to cause problems offensively and big enough to defend, espcially against the "stretch 4's" that are so prevalent now.

I think we see some of this when Doc has gone KG, Pierce, Green, Lee and one of Rondo /Terry/ Barbosa.... a line up that has been productive in the short spurts they have played together.

Borrow a page from the old days. Once McHale attained his defensive "beast mode" whenever he and Bird was on the floor McHale got the harder match-up and Bird got the lesser offensive player. So on O PP would still be that outside wing or top of the key gun, but on D he rolls to whomever will take less out of him.

Also Doc has to over rule PP's ego and have him come in off the bench which should further take D load off of PP. I'd also think about taking minutes away too, but just 2-4 per game for starters.

Once Bradly is in back in the rotation it has to come to a head I think.

[bagwell368]

So, We were watching the Maine Red Claws last night and I commented that it's nice to have a "minor league" team where the guys play in the same systems. It was at that point I realized the Red Claws play the same systems and get out rebounded just like the Celtics do.

Actually, one of the reasons I have been watching the Red Claws is to see if their might be any help "down on the farm", be it Maine or some other team. Wright and Downs are both rebounding well but at 6'8"... well, the Celtics have Bass and Sullinger at similar heights who likely would rebound that well or better in the D-League.

Do the systems the Celtics run lead to rebounding issues?

We know the Celtics eschew offensive rebounding preferring to "get back" on defense.

But is there something within the defensive scheme / rotations that puts the Celtics at a disadvantage in rebounding? With the emphasis on "getting back" and playing good defense one would think they should own the defensive boards, but offensive rebounds allowed is often an issue with this team.

Or is it simply a matter of not making boxing out a POE in Boston nor in Maine?

There is some but not much boxing out on the O glass for all teams. I think this mind set came in with KG/PP/RA as a "save the legs" move. It's now a habit/signature. But younger guys like Sullinger, Bradley, etc. can attack O glass and still get back.

In my coaching days of 11-16 year olds whichever 2 players were furthest from the basket had to fall back. The nearest guy HAD to attack the glass, and the other two had to decide if they had a good angle and go or no go. Whatever was done had to be done with full intent, no 1/2 *** 1/2 speed effort. Doc could employ a similar plan to get a bit more glass and still not leave the basket naked.

[Rain City]

im surprised at the notion of PP coming off the bench or changing position. He is a true 3, has been his hole career and we still rely on him heavily to score and he needs rhythm to do so, coming off the bench would compromise that.

i think playing the 4 for stretches is ok vs certain lineups especially if we are behind and need scoring, but if he did a position change we not only lose rebounding and defense in the paint but PP uses more strength and his shooting will be off.

look at harden last yr, OKC made the mistake of having him check lebron who was playing the 4 and running the offense out of the post, backing harden down in the paint harden used all his strength and his shot was nowhere to be found.

PP and harden are similar shooters, all arms and touch, PP shoots better when his legs are tired, if hes playing in the paint defensively using his upperbody strength, his outside shooting will be way less affective.

in the finals OKC made the mistake of having harden check lebron who was playing the 4 and running the offense from the high post backing james down, he used way more upperbody strength than hes used to and his shot was lost. i think playing pp at the 4 would have a similar affect.

[Opalmerr]

The problem remains that Pierce is a shell of the player he once was. Doc is accomodating him by moving him into Allen's role. This is in part due to Pierce's diminished ability to get to the basket as he once did.

So now the Celtics have a redundancy of spot up shooters in KG, Bass and Pierce. It's what made Bradley so effective late last season - he slashed to the basket with and without the ball - a role Pierce once filled for the Celtics. During the past season plus even when Pierce gets to the basket he has had trouble elevating / finishing with authority.

This is why starting Jeff Green makes sense. He can take people off the dribble and finishes with authority. Outside shooting is something he can do but not his forte.

By extension, playing Pierce as a spot is shooter with Terry, Barbosa, Lee - guys that like to get to the basket makes sense as well as that is a missing component of the second team. Yeah, Terry can hit the 3's but he's deadly with the ball in his hands and is a more than capable passer. Barbosa is kinda the same type of player. Let Pierce hang out along the arc and receive passes as these guys create havoc off the dribble.

Pierce's production, overall might go down but I'm betting Green's production would go up. At worst, probably a wash in terms of overall production between the two but effiency could go way up by playing to eaches strengths.

[Forever35]

IMO the 2 things I think have to happen in order for things to turn around are:

1) Bradley needs to return and get right back to where he was last season... That should solve many of the defensive issues this team has...

2) Doc needs to trust the guys that were brought here...

[Rain City]

The problem remains that Pierce is a shell of the player he once was. Doc is accomodating him by moving him into Allen's role. This is in part due to Pierce's diminished ability to get to the basket as he once did.

So now the Celtics have a redundancy of spot up shooters in KG, Bass and Pierce. It's what made Bradley so effective late last season - he slashed to the basket with and without the ball - a role Pierce once filled for the Celtics. During the past season plus even when Pierce gets to the basket he has had trouble elevating / finishing with authority.

This is why starting Jeff Green makes sense. He can take people off the dribble and finishes with authority. Outside shooting is something he can do but not his forte.

Bt extension, playing Pierce as a spot ip shooter with Terry, Barbosa, Lee - guys that like to get to the basket makes sense as well as that is a missing component of the second team. Yeah, Terry can hit the 3's but he's deadly with the ball in his hands and is a more than capable passer. Barbosa is kinda the same type of player. Let Pierce hang out along the arc and receive passes as these guys creae havoc off the dribble.

Pierce's production, overall might go downm but I'm betting Green's production would go up. At worst, probably a wash in terms of overall production between the two but effiency could go way up by playing to eaches strengths.

i guess i see what you are saying, offensive redundancy on the 1st and 2nd teams, and by doing a green and pierce swap may make us more difficult to defend.

i think it could be splitting hairs tho, and bringing PP off the bench is far from an easy move to make no matter how you spin it, could very well ruffle feathers. i also think rondos unique play making ability finds a way to get players shots regardless of their style.

[Opalmerr]

IMO the 2 things I think have to happen in order for things to turn around are:

1) Bradley needs to return and get right back to where he was last season... That should solve many of the defensive issues this team has...

2) Doc needs to trust the guys that were brought here...

Those are both valid points.

I fear how rusty Bradley might be.

Doc trusting guys... As a coach I understand how important it is to give my confidence to players. I have been thinking that Doc's reluctance to play some of these guys might have a negative impact on their confidence. More accurately, Doc's reluctance to allow guys to learn by playing through their mistakes hinders their development within the system.

Good decision making ability comes with experience, but experience is often gained as a result of having made a poor decision.

[Forever35]

Those are both valid points.

I fear how rusty Bradley might be.

Doc trusting guys... As a coach I understand how important it is to give my confidence to players. I have been thinking that Doc's reluctance to play some of these guys might have a negative impact on their confidence. More accurately, Doc's reluctance to allow guys to learn by playing through their mistakes hinders their development within the system.

Good decision making ability comes with experience, but experience is often gained as a result of having made a poor decision.

I thought the same but I bet he will be pushing himself more defensively which will overshadow any offensive rust he may show... Plus many of his points came off TO's... His shooting improved and he got more comfortable in the starting line-up as last season went on... I hope he'll be back to face NY on January 7th...

[bagwell368]

im surprised at the notion of PP coming off the bench or changing position. He is a true 3, has been his hole career and we still rely on him heavily to score and he needs rhythm to do so, coming off the bench would compromise that.

i think playing the 4 for stretches is ok vs certain lineups especially if we are behind and need scoring, but if he did a position change we not only lose rebounding and defense in the paint but PP uses more strength and his shooting will be off.

look at harden last yr, OKC made the mistake of having him check lebron who was playing the 4 and running the offense out of the post, backing harden down in the paint harden used all his strength and his shot was nowhere to be found.

PP and harden are similar shooters, all arms and touch, PP shoots better when his legs are tired, if hes playing in the paint defensively using his upperbody strength, his outside shooting will be way less affective.

in the finals OKC made the mistake of having harden check lebron who was playing the 4 and running the offense from the high post backing james down, he used way more upperbody strength than hes used to and his shot was lost. i think playing pp at the 4 would have a similar affect.

Pierce is running on fumes and unlike this year I don't see him playing out of it. Doc cannot stay the course with Pierce as is trying to play the same position and minutes.

Rhythm? Pierce can generate it off the bench and in general will have lesser players to guard and to cover him.

Going down with the ship is honorable and all that, but this teams window is this year, that's it. Either you reshuffle what you have or make a big deal. Doing what we have been doing isn't going to work anymore, and we certainly have zero chance to win a title as is today. Bradley could cure some of that, but adding him alone isn't enough to make this team into a serious contender.

[Opalmerr]

This team just isn't clicking on all cylinders.

Doc got out coached by Carlisle for most the second half and OT tonight.

The chemistry just isn't right. I don't think adding Bradley will be the answer either. This team has a lot of weapons but Doc isn't playing to their strengths... when he plays them at all.

Wilcox was having a really solid game tonight with 10 pts and 6 boards in all of 15:46 of a possible 58 for his position. That's nuts.

Lee played 19:02 against a team that went small and torched the C's "bigger" lineup?

Sullinger only played 10:50 tonight?

Green played 26:34 but was buried on the bench towards the end of regulation and the first OT.

And against a team that went small.... Barbosa played ZERO minutes.

There's a lot of talent being wasted. Doc's got to get it figured out. Playing Jason Terry for 47:45 tonight ... ridiculous. 3-10 from the field, 1 reb and 3 assists... and he got torched on defense a number of times.

Bradley's return will only complicate things.... and if the C's don't get rolling that locker room could turn ugly with guys thinking they deserve more of a chance than they are getting.

[Before4]

When will Barbosa eat into Terry's minutes? The Jett seems grounded and all Barbosa seems to do at this point is score.

[Bird Fan]

I think Bird Fan would settle for one 4/5 if it was Jefferson, and we KNEW KG and Wilcox would remain healthy, and add some C- big at the deadline to eat minutes in games that are gone one way or the other.

But just to match Jefferson's money Green & Bass would seem to have to be included. Sully and Melo don't make enough. Then Bradley and/or a #1 to give the needed hope going forward. We might have to toss in Lee to get back 1 or 2 minor salary dump players to make the deal work.

This isn't a tweek here or there. It's a wholesale major move.

OR:

The no rebound thing works if you have guys that shoot crazy FG like KG/PP/RA in 2007-2008. Right now we are at the back of the top 1/4 of the league in FG%/eFG% and have good DReb. But everything else is pretty much average vs the league except the OReb which is poor. OTOH Doc wants them back down court to play D. That theory should work better when Bradley comes back well, and the D will pick up, and maybe create another 3-5 pts a night in TOV's, which would translate to a better record going forward - maybe even start playing .575-.600 ball. That's nice. The question is what happens in the playoffs, which leads me and Bird Fan back to a big trade for a very effective big.

Yes^ agreed