How long will it take?

[Bird Fan]

Pre season I gave the depth at the 5 and lack of a standout at the 4 as the reasons we can't win a title, and you checked it off as a yes, or visa versa.

A 6'10.5" guy that can play 20 MPG with 3.5/7.5 would be useful, but probably still not enough since either KG or Wilcox is bound to end up sitting at some point with injuries.

We'll see. 1990-1991 Celts come to mind (not for the bigs problem - just the age of the stars angle), 56 wins, out in the semi's.

^BINGO Man I wonder if your reading my mind. Great post!

100% Agree

[Bird Fan]

This team wins without rebounding well. It was a weakness last season. It is a weakness this season.

Sharing the ball has been a team strength. Last night ... it was a glaring weakness.

Play to your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. It's what every team does, or tries to do.

It comes down to expectations. Your's seem different than mine on this Celtics Team.

If you want a good regular season, make the playoffs, play really hard win a series, then great your point is made.

Im speaking to a larger issue, the NBA Celtics 2012-13 cannot make the NBA Finals with, " glaring weakness, it is a weakness this season. " 0% chance, book it.

Thats my point, fix the issue. I want Boston to address the need, thats all.

[Opalmerr]

If the Celtics played like a normal team, rebounding (or lack thereof) would be a much bigger issue.

Overall rebounding, the Celtic's prefer to get five guys back on defense and rarely send anyone to the offensive glass so they are operating at a deficit from the git go due to philosophy.

Should they do a better job rebounding on the defensive glass? No question about this - they should. However, when your best post player (KG) eschews boxing out as if it were a completely foriegn concept to him it is difficult to get anyone else to do so. It is KG's most glaring weakness.

When these guys box out, they rebound adequately if not better. The problem is they don't box out instinctively. It's about attitude... and to borrow from RTT's, attitude reflects leadership. Blame KG and Doc for the lack of boxing out.

Thinking adding a player that rebounds well will somehow magically solve the issue for the Celtics is wishful thinking.... unless a Dennis Rodman clone is available.

[Forever35]

Should they do a better job rebounding on the defensive glass? No question about this - they should. However, when your best post player (KG) eschews boxing out as if it were a completely foriegn concept to him it is difficult to get anyone else to do so. It is KG's most galring weakness.

When these guys box out, they rebound adequately if not better. The problem is they don't box out instinctively. It's about attitude... and to borrow from RTT's, attitude reflects leadership. Blame KG and Doc for the lack of boxing out.

That's why I love guys like Reggie Evans and Jason Maxiel... They love cleaning up the glass on either side of the court...

My issue right now is Bass... Open shots or not, he needs to leave the scoring to Pierce, KG and Rondo and worry about getting defensive rebounds and crashing the offensive glass... He can get his 10 ppg by banging down low and getting to the stripe... He can wear down his defenders with some muscle... He can be close to a double double guy if he hits the glass more...

[bagwell368]

If the Celtics played like a normal team, rebounding (or lack thereof) would be a much bigger issue.

Overall rebounding, the Celtic's prefer to get five guys back on defense and rarely send anyone to the offensive glass so they are operating a deficit from the git go due to philosophy.

Should they do a better job rebounding on the defensive glass? No question about this - they should. However, when your best post player (KG) eschews boxing out as if it were a completely foriegn concept to him it is difficult to get anyone else to do so. It is KG's most galring weakness.

When these guys box out, they rebound adequately if not better. The problem is they don't box out instinctively. It's about attitude... and to borrow from RTT's, attitude reflects leadership. Blame KG and Doc for the lack of boxing out.

Thinking adding a player that rebounds well will somehow magically solve the issue for the Celtics is wishful thinking.... unless a Dennis Rodman clone is available.

Quite so. People don't think it's a plan to abandon the offensive glass, but it is. That plan worked so far in the KG/PP/RA era when they were fairly young and filling it up. When the shooting percentages fade due to age, or replacement players not being as good, that's when you have a problem. Younger players can attack the boards and then turn around and get back on D. When KG/PP are gone that's what will happen.

[xk4]

That's why I love guys like Reggie Evans and Jason Maxiel... They love cleaning up the glass on either side of the court...

My issue right now is Bass... Open shots or not, he needs to leave the scoring to Pierce, KG and Rondo and worry about getting defensive rebounds and crashing the offensive glass... He can get his 10 ppg by banging down low and getting to the stripe... He can wear down his defenders with some muscle... He can be close to a double double guy if he hits the glass more...

That's dumb. Why would you tell a good shooter to stop taking open shots? He's a face-up player, his game isn't going to change at this point

Also, Maxiell isn't even in the top 50 rebound leaders. His average is about 6 in 26 minutes. Bass has 5 in 28

It was actually Greg Monroe that killed us the other night because nobody was boxing out. Team rebounding needs to get better you can't pin it all on Bass

[Opalmerr]

That's why I love guys like Reggie Evans and Jason Maxiel... They love cleaning up the glass on either side of the court...

My issue right now is Bass... Open shots or not, he needs to leave the scoring to Pierce, KG and Rondo and worry about getting defensive rebounds and crashing the offensive glass... He can get his 10 ppg by banging down low and getting to the stripe... He can wear down his defenders with some muscle... He can be close to a double double guy if he hits the glass more...

I understand what you are saying, but do not believe it is necessarily a Brandon Bass issue.

What has happened over the last season plus is a deterioration of Paul Pierce's ability to drive to the basket. He has become a spot up jump shooter. That, in and of itself, is not necessarily a problem. However, it is a problem when the particular skill set is replicated by other players on the court.

This is one reason losing Ray from the line up should have been a boon to the offense - Pierce steps into the Ray role and another player takes Pierce's role of driving / slashing to the basket. We saw the C's really take off when Bradley entered the starting line up last season. Most attributed the improved play to Bradley's defending but it was equally due to his offense and in particular his ability to slash to the basket without and with the ball.

Terry is providing some of this now, but this is not the role he was brought to Boston for. Lee might have added this element as well, but he seems content to launch corner 3's instead of asserting himself going to the basket. Jeff Green has shown the ability to attack the rim and this is one reason I have been advocating that he and Pierce trade roles.

Anyway, you are correct in noting that Bass' jump shooting is a redundancy as the line up is currently constituted, but I am not sure asking Bass to change his game is necessarily the correct way to address the issue at hand.

[Forever35]

That's dumb. Why would you tell a good shooter to stop taking open shots? He's a face-up player, his game isn't going to change at this point

Because that good shooter is down from %48 to %44 this season compared to last... It's not about about changing his game because he's always been able to get to the hoop... His FTA has been steadily dropping, which tells me he's depending more on the perimeter vs. the paint...

Also, Maxiell isn't even in the top 50 rebound leaders. His average is about 6 in 26 minutes. Bass has 5 in 28

Per 36mpg Bass is giving 6 and 11 vs Maxiels' 8 and 13 this season...

It was actually Greg Monroe that killed us the other night because nobody was boxing out. Team rebounding needs to get better you can't pin it all on Bass

My opinion...

[xk4]

Adjusting their stats to 36 doesn't necessarily mean they will match that production. They've basically been the same player over their careers. Bass will get out of his shooting slump eventually, and will continue to be a slightly undersized shooting forward who rebounds less than he could....if he wasn't a slightly undersized shooting forward. Which he is.

[Opalmerr]

I'm to the point of believing if Doc won't shake things up, DAnny is going to have to make a trade.

[Rain City]

^^^ great insight. i dont get to watch as many games as u guys.

i see what you guys are saying about philosophy leading to rebounding woes and being magnified more w/out the same scoring ability... but i also dont think celts have anyone that is a strong rebounder any more. just looking in box scores its been embarrasing last few games.

id like to see how things are with AB back before we think about trading him. and jeff green is killing us, he needs to and should get better and throw in AB and things should improve. i hope.

[Opalmerr]

The expectations for Green were set too high. He's working his way back into the game. The inconsistent play he has given is a product of that. I think by the first of the year he will settle in and be worth 25 mins, 12 pts and 5 rebounds a game.

I'm more concerned with Courtney Lee - he's not coming off a major surgery. He should be better acclimated by now. The C's need him to be more assertive in his role than he has shown an inclination to be.

And the C's need to get Wilcox extended to 20-22 minutes / game asap.

[Opalmerr]

In reading the complaints about Green and Lee not producing as expected a few things occurred to me - changes in their roles since coming to the Celtics being a good catchall phrase to describe what I am talking about.

Basically, the Celtics are integrating a bunch of new players, but it is Terry, Lee, Barbosa, Green and Wilcox I wanted to focus on. Lee and Green in particular have drawn the ire of some for not producing as they were prior to coming to the Celtics. That both are entering their prime years exasperates the situation.

For the review below I went back to Green and Wilcox' last full healthy year prior to the their arriving in Boston. 10/11

Also did not include Bradley or the rookies.

*** There are far too many variables to draw any scientific conclusions from this. It is just a cursory examination of scoring records, but does serve to highlight how point distribution might be impacted.

Name...................Career................. Last.................... This
Rondo.................. 10.9.................... 11.9.................... 13.2
Pierce.................. 22.0.................... 19.4.................... 19.1
Bass......................8.5.................... 12.5......................9.7
Garnett................ 19.3.................... 15.8.................... 15.7
Terry....................16.1.................... 15.1.................... 12.0
Lee........................9.7................... 11.4......................5.7
Green*.................15.1.................... 13.6......................8.9
Wilcox*..................7.4...................... 8.5......................4.3
Barbosa................11.1....................12. 3......................5.9
Collins...................1.3..................... .3.8....................... .5

Totals.................121.4 ................... 124.3...................95.0

Rondo his increased his scoring.
Pierce and Garnett have stayed level.
Everyone else is down although Bass remains above his career average.

Thoughts?

[Bird Fan]

This team cannot make NBA Finals as constructed, a trade must be made to facilitate that need, first.

Second, This team lacks the players (ability) to be rebounders. Brandon Bass is not great rebounder, he's not nor will he be. Now that's not saying on nights he won't get 15rp, it can happen, but you can't count on Bass, Lee, Terry, A. Bradley, K. Garnett (hangs out prem), Pierce (age/ desire), Green (who the He@@ knows) to play the box. Don't hold your breath.....

This team needs two really solid 4/5 guys. I mean one B+ player and one B player to have real shot.

That means trading Bass/ Lee/ Sully/ Melo/ 1st rounders maybe A. Bradley. Yes I do it...

No way this team can beat the Heat, Lakers, Thunder, Spurs and maybe not win the Atlantic?

[Opalmerr]

This team cannot make NBA Finals as constructed, a trade must be made to facilitate that need, first.

They were built to play small. The ability to do so well enough to impose their will on opponents has eluded them thus far and it might never come to fruition based on what we have seen thus far... one of the reasons I began this thread.

Second, This team lacks the players (ability) to be rebounders. Brandon Bass is not great rebounder, he's not nor will he be. Now that's not saying on nights he won't get 15rp, it can happen, but you can't count on Bass, Lee, Terry, A. Bradley, K. Garnett (hangs out prem), Pierce (age/ desire), Green (who the He@@ knows) to play the box. Don't hold your breath.....

Agreed, there is no one on the roster currently able to go for 10 rebounds a game. It is imperative all hands are on deck each and every night to rebound.

This team needs two really solid 4/5 guys. I mean one B+ player and one B player to have real shot.

That means trading Bass/ Lee/ Sully/ Melo/ 1st rounders maybe A. Bradley. Yes I do it...

No way this team can beat the Heat, Lakers, Thunder, Spurs and maybe not win the Atlantic?

I'm not sure they need two new guys. If they could swing a deal for someone like Jefferson without giving up too much. Ideally I'd like to keep KG, Bass, Wilcox together and add Jefferson to the mix. Dreaming, probably, but I would package a guard, Sullinger, Melo, picks..... Try to keep Joseph if at all possible.