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  1. #226
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    No Coach lasts forever, eventually the players tune them out.

    Look at the bums rush Bill Fitch got here from many of the players after winning a title. They got swept by the Bucks. Then KC took over and they won two more.

    Look at Heinsohn in '77-'78, Cowens walkabout undermined him and he got the axe after two titles.

    Doc lost his right hand - Coach T a couple of years ago, KG and PP are declining, RA who might have always been the 3rd/4th wheel is gone. Rondo just does not seem to be a leader. Perkins dealt away and if he had stayed he would have faded away. Too many new guys plugged in at once.

    It's not as rotten a mess as it was in the 1978-1979 year (Rowe, Wicks), but it's a lot like the 1990-1991 season. 3 old war horses, 6 pretty good players added in, a nice regular season record, but a 6 game loss to the Pistons in round 2. The players had talent, but didn't often gel as well as they should have, in particular in the playoffs.

    I started writing here about blowing it up after they lost the Finals. It would have beeen sad and ugly, and the results would not be sure, but we'd be likely closer to the next title than we are now.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  2. #227
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    I can't argue with any of that.

    But at the same time I'm literally sitting here watching Timmy D and the Spurs out hustle the youngest team in the NBA (Rockets)

    Slowly, regrettably, I'm starting to move into the camp that thinks Doc needs to go

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rain City View Post
    green's production was sporadic (erratic) even when he was a starter in OKC tho, there he was a starter and 3rd option. i just dont believe we should cottle this guy. doc has earned his stripes more than green IMO. green just needs to play better no excuses.

    odom and barnes both gave green the business last night and also come off the bench and play sporadically as far as minutes and positions.

    NBA is a player's league, i dont think many believe vinny is a better coach than Doc, i think the blame falls on the players, maybe A LITTLE on DA, we miss steisma, the draft picks still grade out well, lee and JET are underachieving which isnt DAs problem, in hindsight green and collins look pretty bad.
    I have patience with Green. Think it may take until next season to see if he can turn the corner. That said, consistent minutes and a well defined role this season sure would help.

    It is a players league and Doc has been a players coach. I am Doc's biggest fan. Use his quotes with my teams frequently. I believe from the time KG and Allen arrived up until last season he rarely pushed the wrong button. He was magic in managing the C's.

    I think trading away Perk and not being able to adequately replace him has really thrown Doc off stride. What once worked so well isn't working anymore. Losing Thibodeau in that time frame certainly didn't help. Maybe it's simply a matter of the rest of the league catching up to what the C's do, or atempt to do. Nothing ever remains the same and one must accept and adapt to change or be left reminiscing about was and what might have been. I cannot discern where Doc has adapted to the talent on this roster.

    We talk about players slumping, well coaches go through slumps too. Doc is in a serious one and I don't know if he can pull himself out of it. His time may have run its course in Boston. That does not diminish Doc's ability to coach in any way whatsoever. Sometimes a good coach can be the wrong coach for a particular team. No shame in that. It happens and more frequently than some might think.

    If I am Danny Ainge, I think I do everything I can to give Doc a big man (or two) and hope that is enough to make one more run. But I would be doing so knowing my (DA's) job and that of Doc is probably on the line. I don't know that Danny "can" do that though for it would be admiting "going small" hasn't worked, that he made mistakes in assembling this roster.

    And part of me still really likes most of this roster. The coach in me thinks with a different approach, a different coach, they could achieve so much more than they have.
    Last edited by Opalmerr; 12-28-2012 at 09:29 PM.
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by xk4 View Post
    I can't argue with any of that.

    But at the same time I'm literally sitting here watching Timmy D and the Spurs out hustle the youngest team in the NBA (Rockets)

    Slowly, regrettably, I'm starting to move into the camp that thinks Doc needs to go
    Doc is a lot more technical then KC ever was, but he's similar in that he favors vets, and plays the steady hand. He seems slow to work new guys in via mid season trades too. He's not a turn around specialist. So if you want to blow it up, he's not the guy to do it with.

    However, if he goes, KG and PP might just retire. I've wanted move PP for a couple of years, but KG? Even in his decline, one of the 20 greatest players of all time is a considerable force. Rondo? Show me a good trade and he's gone. But it's stupid just to move him. Terry, Bass, and others - move em' on out.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rain City View Post
    homer goggles much?

    crawford is sooooo much better than jet right now. its not even close. KG cant mess w/ blake right now, deandre is a top 5 Center, and if KG is a PF, we dont even have a top 50 center in the L. if there even is that many centers.
    You realize Terry has a better FG% and 3PT% right? Terry was on fire in November.52% FG and 43 from 3. He's cooled off lately but he can do exactly what Crawford is doing who's taking 4 more shots
    The only complaint I have with terry is that he needs a to draw contact more. Actual you could say that for our whole team except pierce. If we can't get easy buckets Down low in the paint, then get to the line


    KG can matchup with Blake. KG's strong enough to man up with Blake, problem is he has to control the whole post since we don't have a rim protector so Griffin beats him with his quickness. Get a center and we're fine



    LOLing so hard at deandre Jordan being called a top 5 center


    Frankly, it disgusts me that people are saying guys like Paul pierce, Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo would quit on doc. These guys adore Doc. This is a whole different team come post season time
    Last edited by Sportfan; 12-28-2012 at 09:53 PM.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportfan View Post
    Frankly, it disgusts me that people are saying guys like Paul pierce, Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo would quit on doc. These guys adore Doc. This is a whole different team come post season time
    I have not read where anyone believes any player or coach has quit.

    Relationships do grow stale. Confidence can be lost in the daily process of preparation and playing. Once again, no one's fault in particular. But that also doesn't mean the team has to or even should stay the course. Sometimes a parting of the ways is beneficial to both parties.

    I referenced a couple of my previous teams earlier. I never, ever questioned the effort of the kids on those teams.They played hard night in and night out, but often had so little to show for their efforts.

    I don't question Doc's effort as a coach and I don't question the effort of any player. Aside from Bags constant questioning of Rondo, I don't think anyone here doubts these guys give everything they have on any particular day.

    What we question is chemistry and results, or more precisely the lack thereof.

    That they pulled out of their funk last season is no guarantee that they will this season. If anything it points to a disturbing negative trend. Blame was put on the vets for coming in out of shape last season, a shortened camp and having to play themselves into game shape while shaking off the rust.

    This season Doc has already called them out for being soft and just this week questioned their conditioning... again. Motivational ploys, surely, but these guys are supposed to be professional atheltes. True motivation comes from within. No one hands it to you and no one can take it away, either. If Doc has to resort to such lame motivational ploys.....

    Something has to change.

    Avery Johnson learned that it is easier to change coaches than change a roster. That after he had them off to their best start in years. Everyone is hoping Bradley will be the catalyst for change, that he will be a difference maker in attitude and productivity that this team needs. I'm not so sure the solution is that simple.
    Last edited by Opalmerr; 12-28-2012 at 10:47 PM.
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opalmerr View Post
    I have not read where anyone believes any player or coach has quit.
    Didn't you say the players might not play for Doc? Sorry if I mis-read but i've seen that argument around the internet today.

    .
    I don't question Doc's effort as a coach and I don't question the effort of any player. Aside from Bags constant questioning of Rondo, I don't think anyone here doubts these guys give everything they have on any particular day.

    What we question is chemistry and results, or more precisely the lack thereof
    .
    Chemistry can still come. The Heat looked mediocre fir the first half of the season. The lakers have been bleh. Doesn't deny that both those team had great talent that in the Heat's case has paid off and in LA's is starting to come together. It's still too early to pull the plug on the season.

    That they pulled out of their funk last season is no guarantee that they will this season. If anything it points to a disturbing negative trend. Blame was put on the vets for coming in out of shape last season, a shortened camp and having to play themselves into game shape while shaking off the rust.
    they did it in 2010 also.

    This season Doc has already called them out for being soft and just this week questioned their conditioning... again. Motivational ploys, surely, but these guys are supposed to be professional atheltes. True motivation comes from within. No one hands it to you and no one can take it away, either. If Doc has to resort to such lame motivational ploys.....

    Something has to change.
    These aren't ploys. Of course when the team is not winning you're going to be asked what the problems are and Doc is addressing them. He's a player's coach. I don't know what goes in behind the locker room but i don't think he's lost his touch with them yet.
    Avery Johnson learned that it is easier to change coaches than change a roster. That after he had them off to their best start in years. Everyone is hoping Bradley will be the catalyst for change, that he will be a difference maker in attitude and productivity that this team needs. I'm not so sure the solution is that simple.
    Avery's strong start was the only credibility he had. Doc has 2 finals appearance, a title and a strong finish from last season on his resume. There's no way he leaves the celtics this season.



    Also, even without Thibs, Doc managed to put out a top defensive team last year, so I don't think losing his right hand man was a HUGE issue

  8. #233
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    I did ask for opinions on whether these guys would play for Doc, but never stated a belief they would not. The question was used as a discussion starter, a highly successful one at that.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A couple of your points have given me cause to ponder a bit more. I have an extremely analytical mind / nature and do go overboard with it at times. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportfan View Post
    You realize Terry has a better FG% and 3PT% right? Terry was on fire in November.52% FG and 43 from 3. He's cooled off lately but he can do exactly what Crawford is doing who's taking 4 more shots
    You realize Crawford is playing better defense then Terry? More than enough to make up for extra shots.

    The only complaint I have with terry is that he needs a to draw contact more. Actual you could say that for our whole team except pierce. If we can't get easy buckets Down low in the paint, then get to the line
    He doesn't go to the line much since '09-'10. He's an outside player now.

    KG can matchup with Blake. KG's strong enough to man up with Blake, problem is he has to control the whole post since we don't have a rim protector so Griffin beats him with his quickness. Get a center and we're fine
    Not so much. Blake is a better offensive and defensive player than KG at this point and plays 4-5 minutes more a game too.

    Frankly, it disgusts me that people are saying guys like Paul pierce, Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo would quit on doc. These guys adore Doc. This is a whole different team come post season time
    Why? Celtic HOF players quit on Bill Fitch and Heinsohn. What remains of Doc's coaching career in Boston is far shorter then the time he has already been here. The pieces we have don't fit that well, the guys we might get in trade as usual probably won't be integrated into the mix that well this season. KG and PP are old and appear more frustrated then they have before. Rondo is being force fed the title of "leader" and I don't see any obvious leadership coming from him.

    Look at the team on the floor, don't they seem to be in the worst shape they have been in overall since 2007-2008? Is there anything but AB coming back that hints at a serious reversal of this thread? Is too much hope being put on AB?

    The old leadership is passing, the new leadership hasn't established itself. A guy like Bass who couldn't figure out the D in a whole season last year was signed, and here he is again, but the fit? Terry is 35 1/4 years old and plays just like his age. PP and KG make mammoth efforts, but can't sustain it game to game to game, and nobody else is jumping in with them? Rondo? As usual - erratic results - by turns brilliant and invisible. Wilcox and Sullinger and Terry are the closest to doing it. But Terry is playing under expectations, and Sullinger and Wilcox are playing to expectations, in part because the expectations were low.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #235
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    People said that the players quit on Terry Francona and that he and Theo Epstein had "run their course" in Boston. Now everybody hates Ben Cherington and we all saw what happened with Booby Valentine last year. Maybe it was the players and not the coach and GM. Maybe it's the players now.

    I'd keep Rondo, Pierce and KG. I'd keep Doc and Danny. Everyone else can be part of the shakeup. I'd even trade Rondo, but only for a guy like Russel Westbrook. I'd trade Pierce, but only for a guy like Rudy Gay. I'd trade KG, but only for a guy like Kevin Love. Since nobody wants to trade away young guys on the uptick for old guys on the downside of their careers, I don't see anything too major going down.

    If you're gonna get what you traded for in Jeff Green he needs to start and play 30+ minutes a night. Bass has proven to be too inconsistent and one-dimensional. Ship hi out for a draft pick or a "warm body" big who can rebound.

    I'd still love to know why KMart hasn't been brought in. He can rebound and he hangs out near the rim on the offensive end. Isn't that what we need?


    2013-2014 BOSTON CELTICS

    RONDO / PRESSEY
    BRADLEY / BAYLESS / JOHNSON
    GREEN / WALLACE / BOGANS
    BASS / HUMPHRIES / FAVERANI
    SULLINGER / OLYNYK / ANTHONY


  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportfan View Post
    You realize Terry has a better FG% and 3PT% right? Terry was on fire in November.52% FG and 43 from 3. He's cooled off lately but he can do exactly what Crawford is doing who's taking 4 more shots
    The only complaint I have with terry is that he needs a to draw contact more. Actual you could say that for our whole team except pierce. If we can't get easy buckets Down low in the paint, then get to the line


    KG can matchup with Blake. KG's strong enough to man up with Blake, problem is he has to control the whole post since we don't have a rim protector so Griffin beats him with his quickness. Get a center and we're fine



    LOLing so hard at deandre Jordan being called a top 5 center


    Frankly, it disgusts me that people are saying guys like Paul pierce, Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo would quit on doc. These guys adore Doc. This is a whole different team come post season time
    JET has a 1% better FG and 3pt%, that could change on any given night...JC gets to the line twice as much, scores 5pts more in less minutes, while sharing the floor w/ more scoring options.... the reason JC is getting more shots is he has a superior ability to create, he is still an excellent one on one player.

    for JET to create he needs to curl off someone or early offense look, clips constantly run a 1-4 look with JC ISO at the top of the key where he is deadly.... also a better passer and defender, nothing against JET, but JC is ballin, a BIG reason clips are playing so well, he is their #1 closer at the end of games too.
    Last edited by Rain City; 12-29-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polish Post View Post
    People said that the players quit on Terry Francona and that he and Theo Epstein had "run their course" in Boston. Now everybody hates Ben Cherington and we all saw what happened with Booby Valentine last year. Maybe it was the players and not the coach and GM. Maybe it's the players now.

    I'd keep Rondo, Pierce and KG. I'd keep Doc and Danny. Everyone else can be part of the shakeup. I'd even trade Rondo, but only for a guy like Russel Westbrook. I'd trade Pierce, but only for a guy like Rudy Gay. I'd trade KG, but only for a guy like Kevin Love. Since nobody wants to trade away young guys on the uptick for old guys on the downside of their careers, I don't see anything too major going down.

    If you're gonna get what you traded for in Jeff Green he needs to start and play 30+ minutes a night. Bass has proven to be too inconsistent and one-dimensional. Ship hi out for a draft pick or a "warm body" big who can rebound.

    I'd still love to know why KMart hasn't been brought in. He can rebound and he hangs out near the rim on the offensive end. Isn't that what we need?
    ive been against it but hes got to be better than bass. i didnt really see this kinda drop off from bass coming, hes been a true pro and 27 yrs hes having a 35 yr old cliff year.

    i think bass' decline and the expectation that lee could knock down 3s and help us stretch the defense have been minor details that has prolly costed us a handfull of games. i dont think you can blame doc or DA for it, these guys are pros, they're 27 and all we need to do is match their stats from prior seasons. these 2 are very disappointing and might as well throw green in there too.
    Last edited by Rain City; 12-29-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  13. #238
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    blake is wayy better offensively but defensively naw kg is still better

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polish Post View Post
    People said that the players quit on Terry Francona and that he and Theo Epstein had "run their course" in Boston. Now everybody hates Ben Cherington and we all saw what happened with Booby Valentine last year. Maybe it was the players and not the coach and GM. Maybe it's the players now.

    I'd keep Rondo, Pierce and KG. I'd keep Doc and Danny. Everyone else can be part of the shakeup. I'd even trade Rondo, but only for a guy like Russel Westbrook. I'd trade Pierce, but only for a guy like Rudy Gay. I'd trade KG, but only for a guy like Kevin Love. Since nobody wants to trade away young guys on the uptick for old guys on the downside of their careers, I don't see anything too major going down.

    If you're gonna get what you traded for in Jeff Green he needs to start and play 30+ minutes a night. Bass has proven to be too inconsistent and one-dimensional. Ship hi out for a draft pick or a "warm body" big who can rebound.

    I'd still love to know why KMart hasn't been brought in. He can rebound and he hangs out near the rim on the offensive end. Isn't that what we need?
    I think BC is doing a fine job.

    I think your list ammounts to no real change at all in the short run.

    Of course we can't get full value for PP or KG, in particular if you think they are still star players. THey are not, they are short term cogs in a better teams plans - at best. The point is to get rid of them so we have a salary slot to use to get someone in here. There are team that might even deal for PP just to shuffle to money forward into this year and cut him after the deal.

    DA is a good GM. Doc is a good Coach for a vet team, but that's over within two years or less. Since we will not win the title this year or next year, why are we farting around with half measures?


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #240
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    Went to the Kentucky at Louisville game today. What a pleasure. Those two teams played hard for 40 minutes. Both teams did so in the collective. That is something that is missing from the Celtic's this season.

    It provided some food for thought that I mulled over on the way home. So, tonight I watched a couple of specific things. One in particular was defensive rotations. I don't know why I didn't pick up on this before...probably because I watch the Celtic games as a fan instead of as a coach. The initial rotation is normally solid but with each subsequent rotation the effectiveness diminishes. That's kind of a "doh!" statement except quite often the rotation that fails and leads to points is the one that should be made by the player who originally got beat. Jason Terry in particular is horrible on secondary rotations. Getting beat twice in one possession... ballwatchingitis. Now, Terry isn't the only guilty party but he is by far the worse.

    Here we have a player that is really struggling with his shot and who is getting torched on defense playing extensive minutes. It's not his fault he is getting more minutes than his play indicates he deserves. No, that's on Doc. But Terry really needs a big capable of erasing his mistakes playing with him. Here's another "doh!" statement - the C's don't have one.

    Building this team to "go small" means the players have to be (more than) capable 1 v 1 defenders, especially on the perimeter. This is not Terry's strength. Jeff Green has struggled defending as well.

    There is hope Bradley will make the C's much better on defense.

    If a trade is to be made Terry should be part of the package that goes due to his inability to play perimeter 1 v 1 defense.... As long as he remains, Doc will continue to play him more than his play, especially his defense, indicates he should play.
    Last edited by Opalmerr; 12-30-2012 at 01:28 AM.
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

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