How long will it take?

[Celticsfan2007]

this wont get us anywhere, for atleast 18 minutes we would have a "bigmen" lineup of bass/sully, bass/green or sully/green which we already saw is awful on defense and not much better on offense.

This goes back to our identity. What is it?

Are we still the defensive minded team of the past 5 years who prides themselves on big defensive stops and grinds out games OR are we now transitioning into a running team that emphasizes less on defense and more on fast breaking and athletism?

I know Doc has made a commitment to playing small, which by default makes us the latter. He still is obviously preaching defense big time, but with the way the NBA game is played now, it could perhaps be time to change our philosophy completely and play small and run 100% of time.

This minute and lineups I proposed are not ideal, but more so the best option with the pieces we currently have available on this team. A shorter rotation will always bring better cohesion between players.

[Celticsfan2007]

Maybe it's me, but I think Wilcox is playing well this year.

Your half right. Offensively he is great when this team wants to run, he is posting a ridiculous 125 ORtg, however his defense has left much to be desired by having one of the worst DRtg on the team at 108. Part of this could be the fact he is playing out of position at the C spot, but he's never been a plus defender at any point in his career so...

Also during the regular season I think you have too many minutes for KG, PP, JT.

The minutes I projected are under the expectation that the game is tight and we are playing starters down the stretch. If games are a blowout either way, the minutes should be shorter.

Bass has never gotten over the hump IMO. He's a good back-up, but a liability as a starter IMO. I'd like to see Green, Wilcox, Sullinger, and anyone we deal for eat up Bass's time.

Bass has been the biggest dissapointment this year to date, and I think we could both agree on this. I'm all for putting him in a bench role, but if thats the case are you comfortable with Sullinger starting and playing against other teams starters? I love Sullinger, but I'm not sure he's ready for that quite yet.

Green at the 4 is intriguing and good in small stretches, but if were starting him at the 4 I see a potential for us to get blown up down low due to a severe lack of interior size and rebounding.

[Opalmerr]

Green at the 4 is intriguing and good in small stretches, but if were starting him at the 4 I see a potential for us to get blown up down low due to a severe lack of interior size and rebounding.

That would seem to be happening regardless of who plays.

[B'sCeltsPatsSox]

You hit the nail on the head with this one, and this is the exact reason why I also believe the Celtics are a dangerous team come playoff time, once the rotation tighten up.

My dream rotation would be (barring no trade and all players healthy):

Starters
Rondo- 36mpg
Bradley- 34mpg
Pierce- 32mpg
Bass- 26mpg
KG- 30mpg

Bench
Terry- 30mpg
Green- 30mpg
Sullinger- 24mpg

Wilcox- DNP
Lee- DNP
Barbosa- DNP
Collins- DNP

This unit could be really productive if they played these minutes night in and night out... once others start to get integrated... things get all of out whack on defensive rotations and players playing out of position.

Your minute total is over 240. And there's no way they only play 8 players a night. Maybe only 8 players would get more than 10 minutes a night, but 10 guys will play every night.

Bradley will not get 34 minutes in any game at all this season barring an injury to Lee or Terry. Wilcox will get the same time as Sullinger. Especially seeing that playing Sullinger and Bass at the same time would be awful for front court with the amount of time you're giving them. Courtney Lee is going to lay at least 15 minutes per game as well.

[Celticsfan2007]

Your minute total is over 240. And there's no way they only play 8 players a night. Maybe only 8 players would get more than 10 minutes a night, but 10 guys will play every night.

Bradley will not get 34 minutes in any game at all this season barring an injury to Lee or Terry. Wilcox will get the same time as Sullinger. Especially seeing that playing Sullinger and Bass at the same time would be awful for front court with the amount of time you're giving them. Courtney Lee is going to lay at least 15 minutes per game as well.

242mpg... my bad. I guess drop Avery down to 32mpg? Done. That's only a 2mpg increase from last seasons averages and that was with him playing sparingly in games during the first half of last season. Bradley was averaging about 34mpg last season once he was starting, btw. I wouldn't throw out the possibility of him doing the same this season, even with his injury.

Wilcox will not get the same mpg as Sullinger. In all honesty, Sullinger as a rookie is a better option and plays better defense at the C position than Wilcox, right now. As you can see by Wilcox's DNP last night, Doc is now starting to realize how big of defensive liability Wilcox can be when he is the direct sub for KG at C. As the season goes on expect Sullingers minutes to continue to increase as his game develops.

[Opalmerr]

Rumors remain that Al Jefferson is available. I like the idea of Big Al coming home.

I like the idea of Evans and Thompson as well.

DA stated he is't quite ready toblow things up yet. Obviously waiting on Bradley to return. Once Jan 15 comes...

I've seen enough. They may have felt it was a good idea to build a roster to "go small" against the Heat but it's not working. Pierce isn't suited for it, Doc has no clue how to coach it and I don't think either is going anywhere so get Pierce playmates that can play his style and give Doc toys he knows what to do with...it looks to be the only hope at this point.

[B'sCeltsPatsSox]

242mpg... my bad. I guess drop Avery down to 32mpg? Done. That's only a 2mpg increase from last seasons averages and that was with him playing sparingly in games during the first half of last season. Bradley was averaging about 34mpg last season once he was starting, btw. I wouldn't throw out the possibility of him doing the same this season, even with his injury.

Wilcox will not get the same mpg as Sullinger. In all honesty, Sullinger as a rookie is a better option and plays better defense at the C position than Wilcox, right now. As you can see by Wilcox's DNP last night, Doc is now starting to realize how big of defensive liability Wilcox can be when he is the direct sub for KG at C. As the season goes on expect Sullingers minutes to continue to increase as his game develops.

Most of Bradley's starting time last season came when Ray was injured. Now that there are two reliable options behind him AND he's coming off double shoulder surgery there's no way he plays 30 MPG.


As for Wilcox, not sure about him. Doc did say he's going to play a lot of rotations this season and Collins did fairly well last night. Maybe he didn't want to disrupt the rhythm there, who knows.

[Bird Fan]

Rumors remain that Al Jefferson is available. I like the idea of Big Al coming home.

I like the idea of Evans and Thompson as well.

DA stated he is't quite ready toblow things up yet. Obviously waiting on Bradley to return. Once Jan 15 comes...

I've seen enough. They may have felt it was a good idea to build a roster to "go small" against the Heat but it's not working. Pierce isn't suited for it, Doc has no clue how to coach it and I don't think either is going anywhere so get Pierce playmates that can play his style and give Doc toys he knows what to do with...it looks to be the only hope at this point.

I agree with this.

This isn't working, Bradley will only cloud the situation upon his return.

I would hope the Celtics make a move before the trade deadline. One would only hope it would happen sooner, to give the team a chance to gel.

Celtic back court is to crowded with bradley coming back. Celtics need to look at all options.

[2shady4u]

what i don't understand is why danny built this team to be small in the first place. you improve where your enemy is weaker, not try to outdo where they are already strong. if danny had focused on getting a big in the paint miami would have had a handful with it. it's obvious you're not gonna get anyone better than lebron at his position so why go small?

[Opalmerr]

what i don't understand is why danny built this team to be small in the first place. you improve where your enemy is weaker, not try to outdo where they are already strong. if danny had focused on getting a big in the paint miami would have had a handful with it. it's obvious you're not gonna get anyone better than lebron at his position so why go small?

Good questions.

1) First, "going small" is not an all-bad thing. Miami's weakness has been point guard play although Chalmers has stepped up to the challenge there. In that respect DA should have gotten a second true point guard to play behind Rondo. Terry and Barbosa are hybrid guards - kinda scoring points in a sense that they are shoot first but both can be capable passers.

2) Going small might have meant acquiring wing defenders. Pierce v LeBron... at this stage of Pierce's career he is overmatched by LeBron - almost everyone is overmatched by LeBron so there's no shame there. He's got Bradley to defend Wade. Rondo on Chalmers should be a C's advantage. Needed to acquire backup wing defenders. Green and Lee...? I don't know. Lee can be a capable defender but I don't know that defense has ever been Green's calling card or will be.

3) Going small keeps KG away from LeBron when the move LeBron to the 4, but it also forces him on to Bosh who is younger and active. That leaves Bass / Sullinger on LeBron when he plays the 4. Yikes!

So, yeah, I've been wonder what DA's plan was as well. I like the talent of the guys he brought in but there's some redundancy and generally a mish-mash feel for how it fits together. With all the small / quick guards I felt DA gave Doc the pieces to really pressure opponents guards and pick up the tempo. Run off steals, made baskets and rebounds. Just run, run, run utilizing the depth the C's have at guard to wear down the opponents. That isn't happening on a sustained basis.... although we've seen some signs of it being effective on a limited basis, especially in recent games.

I also felt having 5 guards with value could lead to a trade - that DA couldn't get the BIG he wanted so signed redundant talent at the guard position in order to facilitate a trade. The same might be said for having Pierce, Green and Joseph stockpiled at the 3 spot. Come Jan. 15th we might find help on the way. How much help can be obtained with the trade pieces the C's have available is open to debate.

It appears to be a mess, a clusterf#*K nearing epic proportions, but it also might simply be we don't have enough pieces of the puzzle to realize DA's full plan... assuming he has one deeper than has been revealed to date.

[bagwell368]

what i don't understand is why danny built this team to be small in the first place. you improve where your enemy is weaker, not try to outdo where they are already strong. if danny had focused on getting a big in the paint miami would have had a handful with it. it's obvious you're not gonna get anyone better than lebron at his position so why go small?

How about that there were few good bigs available in FA. So DA did what he could to add players with value to play AND to trade if the opportunity presented itself. After watching this team (in person last night for the first time this year), I'd like to see:

Trade: Terry, Bass - Green if required
Out of the dog house: Barbossa, Wilcox
Less time on the floor: KG, PP, Sullinger (he was a turnstile last night when anybody drove by him)
More time on the floor: Lee, Green (if not dealt obviously)

If we could snag Jefferson w/o losing Bradley, KG, Rondo, PP - even if it costs two #1's I am all for it.

Dream rotation for the Celts this year:

Jefferson, Collins
KG, Wilcox
PP, Green (or Sully if Green dealt)
Bradley, Lee
Rondo, Barbossa

Deal Terry, Bass and whatever combo of Green, Joseph, Melo, picks that nabs us a top flight 5/4.

[Forever35]

Trade: Terry, Bass - Green if required

I am also on board with trading Terry before Lee... Terry brings his name, Lee brings youth and intensity which will shine more as the season wears on...
I've been plugging in Lee and Terry as the 2nd unit backcourt, but more and more I'm intrigued with a Lee and Barbosa backcourt...

Out of the dog house: Barbossa, Wilcox

I don't understand it either, unless its a case of guys who know they deserve some more time on the floor and are voicing it to coach... I can't see either of them being a disruption in the locker room...

Less time on the floor: KG, PP, Sullinger (he was a turnstile last night when anybody drove by him)
More time on the floor: Lee, Green (if not dealt obviously)

Yes for Pierce, if anything reduce his first half minutes and backload the the 4th qtr minutes... The C's have been very good in the 2nd qtr, and putrid in the 3rd and 4th...

No for Sully... He's actually at 102 defensive rating, KG is 101 and Bass is 105... I think last night was a nightmare which included the refs for Sully... He just seemed lost about everything...

If we could snag Jefferson w/o losing Bradley, KG, Rondo, PP - even if it costs two #1's I am all for it.

Would like it too, but I'm sure besides a few 1st's which most teams will offer, there a a few select teams who could offer some decent players in return... Looks like Utah isn't interested in picking up multi year contracts...

[bagwell368]

No for Sully... He's actually at 102 defensive rating, KG is 101 and Bass is 105... I think last night was a nightmare which included the refs for Sully... He just seemed lost about everything...

Sully got at least 2 rookie calls last night. I don't dispute that. But he's immobile on D on the ball. He tried blocking a couple of shots last night. It was pathetic, he can't jump and he can't shuffle his feet.

If he's going to go for the Charles Barkley thing (the backsides look similar), then Sully better gain 45 lbs (mostly muscle) so he can get some spring in his jump, and become more unmovable in the paint.

He has a decent offensive game, and he has the heart, and can grab defensive rebounds, but he's a liability on D - and the 102 rating must be because he's been protected by KG and others out there.

[Celticsfan2007]

I've been really impressed with Sullinger in his limited minutes so far. I even like him playing some backup C when KG is out of the game... He's a better defender than both Bass and Wilcox combined.

I don't read much into his fouls per game as many times he gets fouls called on him strictly due to his in-experience in certain situations and defensive rotations. He just needs more seasoning and experience, I'd keep playing him 15mpg minimum until he grasps our defense 100%. Once he is able to do that, his reins will be off and you will see him start to put up big numbers.

[bagwell368]

I've been really impressed with Sullinger in his limited minutes so far. I even like him playing some backup C when KG is out of the game... He's a better defender than both Bass and Wilcox combined.

That's a good opportunity for this: Defensive Value: Bass = Bass + Wilcox

I don't read much into his fouls per game as many times he gets fouls called on him strictly due to his in-experience in certain situations and defensive rotations. He just needs more seasoning and experience, I'd keep playing him 15mpg minimum until he grasps our defense 100%. Once he is able to do that, his reins will be off and you will see him start to put up big numbers.

I understand he's a rookie, and he gets more fouls called on him, and that he doesn't get the rotations yet - but - when he's 6 feet from the basket, and guards and forwards blow by him with the ball like he's a statue - that's a problem. That has nothing to do with coaching or fouls. That has to do with physical inability to contest on defense.

Unless he gets much quicker or bigger and quicker, he's going to be a career back-up. Good enough pick for where he was taken, but not special.