How long will it take?

[69centers]

Terry is NOT our 6th man tho. Green is. Plus Terry's shot has been off in the first 2 games(besides last night in garbage time but hopefully that gets him in a groove) when he's knocking down shots he'll be out there more.

Green plays a different position so it shouldn't have anything to do with Terry's minutes.

I thought the roles looked a bit more defined tonight and I liked Doc's rotations a bit better. Still not sold on playing Sullinger and Bass together - liked pairing Sullinger with Garnett and pairing Bass with Wilcox.

I think there is still a long way to go. Hope Doc sticks with this line up and rotation for a couple of weeks to let everyone settle in.

Terry got even less minutes, though. Only 17. That's not good. The more minutes he gets, the more offense we get. We only scored 89 against the Wizards. That won't cut it against most teams this year, especially since our D isn't quite up to snuff.

[bagwell368]

We lost Ray and KG and Pierce are getting older and their points are going to drop. We need offense. Terry is offense. He only got 9 minutes in a half we scored only 30, with Pierce sitting in foul trouble.

Terry scored 10 in 24 minutes tonight, and Lee only 7 in 32 minutes.

Going by last season's stats, Terry is the 3rd best scorer on our team (and only behind KG for 2nd by about 1/2 a point) so why did 6 other players get more minutes than Terry tonight?

Terry is not going to wear out. He's shown no signs of needing rest or less minutes last year. He's only missed about 30 games over 13 seasons. He's never missed more than 8 games in one year and has never been injury prone. If he's getting only 24 MPG now, what about when Bradley comes back?? This is not a good sign.

Terry's time will be 21 MP +/- 3 all season before the playoffs. When Bradley comes back, Lee will lose lots of time, Rondo, and Barbosa also will lose a minute or three.

Terry is 35, and this teams big selling point is depth at the 1-2-3. Beating a guy that is older then Pierce when you have depth? It doesn't seem wise. For one thing Doc is still trying to figure what he has. How would he know for instance the Sullinger doesn't get the defensive rotations, and that his lack of foot speed would be costing them already. There are another dozen issues with the team.

Check back after game 20, it should be much more clear.

[bagwell368]

Yeah, I remember people thinking making Havlicek as the sixth man was stupid too.

Ummm... Havlicek was the 6th man his first 4 years - probably the best in NBA history. I can't remember reading about anyone complaining about that role.

Later when he was old, he still started.

That aside, I wrote back when DA was putting the team together that it looked like two teams. A young up tempo team, and an older slow down team.

If Bradley was healthy it would be pretty easy to mix it up that way, except we need KG cloned to be on both teams. The other problem is starters like PP are not going to be happy going from 34 MPG to 24.

Basically you can have some ad hoc sets of 5 to put out there every now and then, but not all time time.

[Opalmerr]

Green plays a different position so it shouldn't have anything to do with Terry's minutes.



Terry got even less minutes, though. Only 17. That's not good. The more minutes he gets, the more offense we get. We only scored 89 against the Wizards. That won't cut it against most teams this year, especially since our D isn't quite up to snuff.

I agree the guard rotation still has a ways to go.

Rondo played 40:29 last night and I don't think he needs to do that with the guards the C's now have. I'd like to see his minutes down to, say, an average of 32 mins / game.

I don't think Terry is going to get the 33+ minutes a game he has gotten throughout his career. Not with the guards on this team. Especially not when Bradley returns.

Lee may not get the 30 mins / game he got last year.

Barbosa may not get the 22 mins / game he has the last couple of years.

Bradley will complicate Doc's job / the rotation even further.

Rondo 32 minutes
Lee 24
Terry 24
Barbosa 16

Just kinda threw those numbers out there.... Honestly don't know how I would divide minutes. Lee is the only one with size so I expect he will get every opportunity to show he can guard opposing Big 2's. Terry and Barbosa need to see the ball - they are scorers.

What I expect to see happen, provided Bradley returns healthy and can produce as he did last season, is to see a trade sometime before the deadline packaging one of the guards and possibly one or more of Milicic, Wilcox, or Collins for a more capable big man.

[69centers]

I wouldn't reduce Rondo to 32, but I agree he doesn't need to play 40 against the Wizards. He should get 36-40 each night, depending on the team we are facing. They didn't even have John Wall, so for Rondo to play 40 just to be able to squeak out the W isn't good.

[bagwell368]

I wouldn't reduce Rondo to 32, but I agree he doesn't need to play 40 against the Wizards. He should get 36-40 each night, depending on the team we are facing. They didn't even have John Wall, so for Rondo to play 40 just to be able to squeak out the W isn't good.

Right. Rondo at 32 MPG isn't enough 35-38 range. He's young and is supposed to make us go.

[Bird Fan]

It's amazing reading some post. It's what others/ I were saying before the year.

1. Boston- Can't rebound, Can't defend inside without KG, No good option at center #5 without KG, can't hold leads, play tight late in games.

2. Darko isn't in shape and looks rough.

3. J. Green is not playing aggressive. Looks lost at times.

4. P. Pierce looks very old right now, taking bad shots.


Sounds like what myself and few others have been saying. So thin up front, it's a matter of time...... That train is never late!

[Bird Fan]

Right. Rondo at 32 MPG isn't enough 35-38 range. He's young and is supposed to make us go.

Agreed.

Also, Brandon Bass looks like he's trying find his role. Little confused by that one as well.

[bagwell368]

Agreed.

Also, Brandon Bass looks like he's trying find his role. Little confused by that one as well.

The dirty secret on Bass last year is he never figured out the D rotations. He still is conflicted - massively so when KG is sitting.

Both back-up bigs look like they missed camp.... One might pan out well, but I can't see both as fully functional. Melo to the rescue!

If we had two KG's, and a healthy Bradley to start the season we could have won 68 games and had a heck of a shot at the title.

Sullinger has the heart and offensive arsenal to help, but his foot speed reminds me of Perkins just before the injury. I think they can give him some routines to help with his pelvic strength and agility. But in this year, his performance will be good for where he was picked, but, no like the top 10 lottery guy people were touting. In two years - maybe.

It's going to be a likeable team, but, Vegas was right 3% shot at a title - and that's what? Out of 125% (Vegas math).

[Opalmerr]

4. P. Pierce looks very old right now, taking bad shots.

There are four tell-tale signs about Pierce.

1) He recognizes his time is fading fast and the proof of this is found in his having dropped considerable weight in preparation for this season.

2) He was never an explosive high flyer but he has lost most of what he did have. The man just cannot jump anymore.

3) He is struggling to defend. His experience carries him some, but not enough against quality starters.

4) On iso's he has quit going to the basket. When was the last time you saw his patented from the right to his left drive to the basket? He just doesn't have the legs to do it any more. And when he does get to the rim in traffic he just cannot elevate to finish. He needs a clear path to gather himself to dunk it.

Now, I firmly believe Pierce can still be a productive player... against opponents second team 3's. He would still be a load in that role and playing 24 minutes a game would preserve what he does have left in his legs. He would also bring a leadership dynamic to the second unit that has been sorely missing.

KG's return was the key consideration in how this roster would be assembled, but make no mistake about it this is a team in transition. The assembled talent appears good enough to make a serious run at banner #18 but it has to be managed better than we have seen pre and early season.

Sorting out roles is why I started this thread and it holds the keys to the season. Doc's proclivity to go with known quanities, and his loyalty to guys like Pierce and KG are his achilles heel right now. He's riding those horses right into the ground and if he continues to do so will ride the Celtics season into the ground as well.

[Bird Fan]

There are four tell-tale signs about Pierce.

1) He recognizes his time is fading fast and the proof of this is found in his having dropped considerable weight in preparation for this season.

2) He was never an explosive high flyer but he has lost most of what he did have. The man just cannot jump anymore.

3) He is struggling to defend. His experience carries him some, but not enough against quality starters.

4) On iso's he has quit going to the basket. When was the last time you saw his patented from the right to his left drive to the basket? He just doesn't have the legs to do it any more. And when he does get to the rim in traffic he just cannot elevate to finish. He needs a clear path to gather himself to dunk it.

Now, I firmly believe Pierce can still be a productive player... against opponents second team 3's. He would still be a load in that role and playing 24 minutes a game would preserve what he does have left in his legs. He would also bring a leadership dynamic tothe second unit that has been sorely missing.

KG's return was the key considerationin how this roster would be assembled, but make no mistake about it this is a team in transition. The assembled talent appeas good enough to make a serious run at banner #18 but it has to be managed better than we have seen pre and early season.

Sorting out roles is why I started this thread and it holds the keys to the season. Doc's proclivity to go with known quanities, and his loyalty to guys liek Pierce and KG are his achilles heel right now. He's riding those horses right into the ground and if he continues to do so will ride the Celtics season into the ground as well.

First, good post. Nice read....


Yeah, Pierce is a huge question. Also can he stay healthy. My guess for 82 game NBA year is no, but we will see.

I don't know, It feels like something is missing. It's almost like he lacks the desire anymore, or doubts himself now(age).

Yes, he is very slow. Taking bad shots and getting beat by players that shouldn't be beating him, period.

But J. Green has shown me nothing. I like all the ability, talent, size, ext....I get it.

What I don't like is J. Greens motor, he plays with no desire, passion, heart? It's like he's lost or unsure of what to do.

Example- It like the really cool new kid at party, he stays in corner silent. He doesn't want to upset anyone. So the kid never shows who he is.

I think a big part is P. Pierce is lazy, he's not putting the work in.

[Opalmerr]

I don't know that Pierce is lazy as much as it is a matter of no longer being able to do some of the things that defined his game at the level that made him one of the all-time Celtic greats. Maybe he is hanging around too long? I think he can still be productive, just not in the same way he is accustomed to being productive. So, the question becomes, can he adapt?

As to Jeff Green.... You make very good observations.

This is a team in transition. We have heard the talk of Pierce and KG deferring to Rondo as the leader of the team. We also recognize that KG remains the "spiritual" leader of the team. In order to remain relevant in that role KG's minutes are being limited - the 5/5/5 plan.

I believe the time has come to institute a similar plan with Pierce. Moving Pierce to the 6th man role by extension gives a vote of confidence to Jeff Green and might be the impetus for getting him out of the corner and into the party, as you state.

[TheBigORobinson]

The first glaring problem I see is that I don't agree with Courtney Lee getting more minutes than Terry. If you look at any team who have great sixth men, that sixth man ALWAYS gets near starter minutes and more minutes than his starting counterpart. This team needed a serious offensive boost of it's bench last year, and we got one of the best 6th man scorers in the game and he's not getting the minutes he should.

Unless Lee is hot and knocking down 3's, he should be subbed for a lot quicker than Doc did the last 2 games. Terry is better than Lee, plain and simple. Terry scored 15 PPG in 31 MPG last year and Lee 11 PPG in 30 MPG. WE NEED THAT EXTRA 4 POINTS PER GAME!!! Not to mention Ray averaged 14 last season, for whom Lee is replacing.

Doc hasn't had a 6th man like this during his time with the C's and it's looking like he does not know how to use Terry correctly yet.

Laughing Out Loud at your post. Doc hasn't had a 6th man like this? What do you think James Posey was and how do you think Doc won a championship using Posey. Until Baby Davis got hut, he was a candidate for 6th man of the year substituting for both Center and Power forward and playing big minutes.

This situation is not a big problem. This is just working out kinks early season like the Lakers have to do, like the Nets have to do, like the SIxers have to do, like the Celtics last year had to do, like the Heat had to do their first season together. Let's not make too much of this. Doc will get it right as he has every year (that's how the C's go further in the playoffs than people anticipate each year). This year will be no different.

[69centers]

Laughing Out Loud at your post. Doc hasn't had a 6th man like this? What do you think James Posey was and how do you think Doc won a championship using Posey. Until Baby Davis got hut, he was a candidate for 6th man of the year substituting for both Center and Power forward and playing big minutes.

This situation is not a big problem. This is just working out kinks early season like the Lakers have to do, like the Nets have to do, like the SIxers have to do, like the Celtics last year had to do, like the Heat had to do their first season together. Let's not make too much of this. Doc will get it right as he has every year (that's how the C's go further in the playoffs than people anticipate each year). This year will be no different.

Posey finished in 8th place for 6th man of the year voting that season. He was our first off the bench, and one of our best reserves, but he was not a caliber of someone who wins the 6th man of the year award. He was 7PPG and 24MPG. Not even close to what 6th men of the year candidates get. They always get close to 30MPG or more and always get up over double digits in scoring. Big Baby came in 4th one year in 6th man voting, and that was the year he put up nearly 12 PPG. Posey wasn't even close to double digits in scoring. Guess who came in 3rd in 07/08 sixth man voting? Terry.

[Opalmerr]

Posey finished in 8th place for 6th man of the year voting that season. He was our first off the bench, and one of our best reserves, but he was not a caliber of someone who wins the 6th man of the year award. He was 7PPG and 24MPG. Not even close to what 6th men of the year candidates get. They always get close to 30MPG or more and always get up over double digits in scoring. Big Baby came in 4th one year in 6th man voting, and that was the year he put up nearly 12 PPG. Posey wasn't even close to double digits in scoring. Guess who came in 3rd in 07/08 sixth man voting? Terry.

Posey was poised and a steadying influence.... something the C's have not had since.