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  1. #16
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    Frankly our entire outfield should have won for the work they did this season - plus Prado's play at 3rd, 2nd, 1st and short. At least they got Heyward right though.

  2. #17
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    The fact that CarGo and McCutchen won gold gloves is a crime. Neither of them were even remotely close to deserving being anywhere near those awards.
    Please come join me on the Hawks forums.

  3. #18
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    It's how the voting system is. Should be taken out of the managers hands. They don't see every game, so how can they vote on something for a year long award?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by beldugo View Post
    In my opinion Freeman is very good stretching out at first base and scooping throws but he completely sucks taking grounders to his right i would have been surprised if he won it and frankly it would have been a bad choice. Michael Bourn was the best defensive Outfielder in the majors, he got robbed.
    Just foud out that McCutcheon was -5 in DRS. Bourn led all outfielders in the MLB with an estimated 24 and he had previously won 3 GGs, plus a playoff team player unlike McCutcheon so quite a shocking snub.
    You guys can make an argument for Bourn, heck I could to if inclined. But I'm didn't say he should not have won it, just said I was not at all surprised. I've read a few of these blogs and fans seem to ignore that Bourn doesn't have the best throwing Arm. Some have even gone far enough as to say it doesn't matter. Again I didn't say he shouldn't have won, just said I'm not surprised. But saying he got robbed, knowing about his arm is a stretch.

    Bel....... Freeman saves so many throw's Chipper, Prado, Uggla, Yanish, Pastornicky, Francisco, simmons, and even a few from the pitchers that it is shocking to me he didn't win.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench View Post
    It's how the voting system is. Should be taken out of the managers hands. They don't see every game, so how can they vote on something for a year long award?
    SO who would you let vote on it if you where in charge?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SB75 View Post
    You guys can make an argument for Bourn, heck I could to if inclined. But I'm didn't say he should not have won it, just said I was not at all surprised. I've read a few of these blogs and fans seem to ignore that Bourn doesn't have the best throwing Arm. Some have even gone far enough as to say it doesn't matter. Again I didn't say he shouldn't have won, just said I'm not surprised. But saying he got robbed, knowing about his arm is a stretch.

    Bel....... Freeman saves so many throw's Chipper, Prado, Uggla, Yanish, Pastornicky, Francisco, simmons, and even a few from the pitchers that it is shocking to me he didn't win.
    Going against my better judgement here in partaking in another argument with you. His arm was actually rated to be better than McCutchen's. In fact, according to the Fangraphs arm rating, only three other center fielders had a better arm. Drew Stubbs, Carlos Gomez, and Matt Kemp.

    When we look at those three people plus McCutchen:

    Let me preface this by saying Matt Kemp is a terrible defensive player, but you brought up the arms as being a factor.

    Stubbs - RngR 2.1 UZR 6.8 DRS 2 Arm 5.9
    Gomez - RngR 4.2 UZR 5.5 DRS 3 Arm 2.3
    Kemp - RngR -13 UZR -8.8 DRS -13 Arm 3.4

    McCutchen - RngR -5.3 UZR -6.9 DRS -5 Arm -2.6

    Then we have Michael Bourn

    RngR 19.3 UZR 22.4 DRS 24 Arm 1.9

    He absolutely.. flat out... was completely robbed. Not only was he the best center fielder in the National League. Not only was he the best center fielder in baseball. He was flat out the best outfielder in all of baseball this season. The only possible exception is Jason Heyward.
    Please come join me on the Hawks forums.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn0303 View Post
    Going against my better judgement here in partaking in another argument with you. His arm was actually rated to be better than McCutchen's. In fact, according to the Fangraphs arm rating, only three other center fielders had a better arm. Drew Stubbs, Carlos Gomez, and Matt Kemp.

    When we look at those three people plus McCutchen:

    Let me preface this by saying Matt Kemp is a terrible defensive player, but you brought up the arms as being a factor.

    Stubbs - RngR 2.1 UZR 6.8 DRS 2 Arm 5.9
    Gomez - RngR 4.2 UZR 5.5 DRS 3 Arm 2.3
    Kemp - RngR -13 UZR -8.8 DRS -13 Arm 3.4

    McCutchen - RngR -5.3 UZR -6.9 DRS -5 Arm -2.6

    Then we have Michael Bourn

    RngR 19.3 UZR 22.4 DRS 24 Arm 1.9

    He absolutely.. flat out... was completely robbed. Not only was he the best center fielder in the National League. Not only was he the best center fielder in baseball. He was flat out the best outfielder in all of baseball this season. The only possible exception is Jason Heyward.
    Dude........ You always start off wrong with your comment and wonder why the convo goes the diretion it does. Then you blame the other poster. This is not an argument, it's a debate or simply a convo about baseball.

    You can't measure defense in baseball by a stat. It has always been one of the flawed logics in baseball that you can have a stat for everything, it just doesn't work. You have seen Bourn play what around 200 games for the Braves now? Do you really think he has a better arm than Andrew?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SB75 View Post
    Dude........ You always start off wrong with your comment and wonder why the convo goes the diretion it does. Then you blame the other poster. This is not an argument, it's a debate or simply a convo about baseball.

    You can't measure defense in baseball by a stat. It has always been one of the flawed logics in baseball that you can have a stat for everything, it just doesn't work. You have seen Bourn play what around 200 games for the Braves now? Do you really think he has a better arm than Andrew?
    Taking a page out of your book here.

    If you're going to just completely discount defensive metrics then I honestly have nothing to say. I can actually say that Bourn's arm is just as good if not better than McCutchen's. Then you factor in that is the only thing that he is remotely close to Bourn's caliber in. Pretty easy call
    Last edited by jwn0303; 10-31-2012 at 01:35 PM.
    Please come join me on the Hawks forums.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn0303 View Post
    Taking a page out of your book here.

    If you're going to just completely discount defensive metrics then I honestly have nothing to say. I can actually say that Bourn's arm is just as good if not better than McCutchen's. Then you factor in that is the only thing that he is remotely close to Bourn's caliber in. Pretty easy call
    Dude just stop! If you want to argue take it elsewhere! You don't like my ideas, stop responding to my post. Again you start ish' get caught, and blame the other guy. SMH.

    Bourns arm just as good as Andrews
    Last edited by SB75; 10-31-2012 at 01:49 PM.

  10. #25
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    Last edited by Bravo95; 10-31-2012 at 01:54 PM.

  11. #26
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    Throwing arm has very little to do with being a great defender in center field though. Very few are blessed with it, but anyone who has ever played the game knows range and ability to go back on the ball are most important. The Yanks and Rangers suffered huge losses a few weeks ago because they have two guys playing CF (Granderson and Hamilton) who should be moved to the corner and it cost them dearly.

    Andruw Jones showed you all how it's done, he played shallow his entire career but was the master at going back on the ball, over the shoulder catches, squaring in, and rarely took a false step. He did not win gold gloves because of his throwing arm. Michael Bourn is an elite defensive CF like Jones was.

    Having a great arm in CF is just something extra but not vital, like a second baseman with legit homerun power, but 95% of playing the outfield is about range and reading trajectory, especially for bounces off the wall, and most of the guys who are considered great CFs suck at it so their arm strength really doesn't matter since they're giving up all those hits/extra bases from taking bad paths to the ball.
    Last edited by Bravo95; 10-31-2012 at 01:55 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    Throwing arm has very little to do with being a great defender in center field though. Very few are blessed with it, but anyone who has ever played the game knows range and ability to go back on the ball are most important. Andruw Jones showed you all how it's done, he played shallow his entire career but was the master at going back on the ball, over the shoulder catches, squaring in, and rarely took a false step. He did not win gold gloves because of his throwing arm. Michael Bourn is an elite defensive CF like Jones was.

    Having a great arm in CF is just something extra but not vital, like a second baseman with legit homerun power, but 95% of playing the outfield is about range and reading trajectory, especially for bounces off the wall, and most of the guys who are considered great CFs suck at it so their arm strength really doesn't matter since they're giving up all those hits/extra bases from taking bad paths to the balls.
    Very little? Again discounting it doesn't make it true. I'm not saying or even acting like it is the most important. Just that if managers ( and this is all hypothetical, because we don't know what went into their thinking) thought it was close on other ability's, the fact that Andrew has an arm that will keep some players where they are could be a feather in his cap.

    Again...... PLEASE READ! I'M NOT SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE WON, JUST THAT IT WASN'T A SHOCK TO ME. If you going to ignore holding runners with your arm, as a part of defense, you will continue to be in shock. But I won't so I'm not shocked. Nor do I think he was robbed. Never said Bourn was not an elite defender..... However I do not think he is the only elite defender in CF in the MLB.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea
    Frankly our entire outfield should have won for the work they did this season - plus Prado's play at 3rd, 2nd, 1st and short. At least they got Heyward right though.
    I didn't expect Prado to win because he's always flown under the radar for pretty much everything his entire career. I initially thought he would struggle for a while adjusting to LF, but he definitely proved me wrong.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bravo95 View Post
    i didn't expect prado to win because he's always flown under the radar for pretty much everything his entire career. I initially thought he would struggle for a while adjusting to lf, but he definitely proved me wrong.
    +1!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SB75 View Post
    You guys can make an argument for Bourn, heck I could to if inclined. But I'm didn't say he should not have won it, just said I was not at all surprised. I've read a few of these blogs and fans seem to ignore that Bourn doesn't have the best throwing Arm. Some have even gone far enough as to say it doesn't matter. Again I didn't say he shouldn't have won, just said I'm not surprised. But saying he got robbed, knowing about his arm is a stretch.

    Bel....... Freeman saves so many throw's Chipper, Prado, Uggla, Yanish, Pastornicky, Francisco, simmons, and even a few from the pitchers that it is shocking to me he didn't win.
    yeah he is very good at that, but i know you watch a lot of braves games, you have seen his range to his right, almost non existent, Votto and Laroche are ahead of him, unless Freeman get better (he actually made some progress this year compared to 2011) something that he could do, i can't see him winning a GG, or at least not deserving it.

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