Gold Glove Awards

[Bravo95]

Very little? Again discounting it doesn't make it true. I'm not saying or even acting like it is the most important. Just that if managers ( and this is all hypothetical, because we don't know what went into their thinking) thought it was close on other ability's, the fact that Andrew has an arm that will keep some players where they are could be a feather in his cap.

Again...... PLEASE READ! I'M NOT SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE WON, JUST THAT IT WASN'T A SHOCK TO ME. If you going to ignore holding runners with your arm, as a part of defense, you will continue to be in shock. But I won't so I'm not shocked. Nor do I think he was robbed. Never said Bourn was not an elite defender..... However I do not think he is the only elite defender in CF in the MLB.

Which is why those managers are/were idiots, because it's not close on "other ability's" since those guys suck at reading the ball off the bat. I'm not in shock really because the awards have become a joke in most sports and a lot of guys have no clue what they are talking about and some athletes get awards based off reputation: Jeter's GG, Kobe's All-NBA defense 1st team, etc.

Some of those managers are just dumb enough to think guys like McCutchen and others are elite at covering ground, so it's no surprise to see guys like him, Granderson, and Hamilton end up costing their teams a lot of games because they take bad routes and give up unnecessary hits and extra bases that come back to haunt their teams.

[Bravo95]

yeah he is very good at that, but i know you watch a lot of braves games, you have seen his range to his right, almost non existent, Votto and Laroche are ahead of him, unless Freeman get better (he actually made some progress this year compared to 2011) something that he could do, i can't see him winning a GG, or at least not deserving it.

This is exactly right. The Braves got killed in 2011 by ground balls to the right side because Uggla and Freeman didn't have much range and too many of them got through, which allowed Heyward to show off his arm more than he needed to. Fred's range was improving and I believe he will get there soon but he did not deserve a GG this season.

[SB75]

Which is why those managers are/were idiots, because it's not close on "other ability's" since those guys suck at reading the ball off the bat. I'm not in shock really because the awards have become a joke in most sports and a lot of guys have no clue what they are talking about and some athletes get awards based off reputation: Jeter's GG, Kobe's All-NBA defense 1st team, etc.

Some of those managers are just dumb enough to think guys like McCutchen and others are elite at covering ground, so it's no surprise to see guys like him, Granderson, and Hamilton end up costing their teams a lot of games because they take bad routes and give up unnecessary hits and extra bases that come back to haunt their teams.

1) I don't think you are reading what I said in the context of what I typed it..... I think you totally ignore what an arm or lack there of does to the game........ But that's another convo. For this one I'm not saying you can divide up percentages ( on how important they are) and say that the arm is the same percentage as reading the ball off the bat, the jump, or the speed to get to it. But I do think it's a lot more than the 5% you gave it and if a manager thinks that the other area's we talked about are close, the arm could very well be the determining factor in the vote they give.

2) Man I know it was directed at the managers but, I still don't get why someone has to be an idiot or be called an idiot because they disagree with you.

3) Sadley enough offense does have something to do with the GG's. Heck Kemp won one. They talked about giving Trout one and he get's replaced on his own team in CF late in games for defense by Bourjos. Not saying he's not a good one, just you can't be the best in the AL, if you are not the best on your own team. So yes I agree with you on that..... Felt the same way about Kobe's defense for years. He's good, but not who they make him out to be.

[Bravo95]

1) No I don't ignore what arm does for the game, it's simply not as important to have one to be a great fielder. Bonds won plenty of gold gloves (in LF but would have been good in CF), deserved all of them but his arm was mediocre. Over 162 games, a guy who can track down flyballs to rob HRs and doubles, and play caroms correctly to prevent guys from taking extra bases, will help a club more than a guy who throws out a couple runners once every few games.

2) When Fredi Gonzalez did something stupid, I'll call it stupid, just like others in here did. Just because it's a different subject doesn't mean the policy should change.

3) Offense should not have anything to do with gold gloves, but I believe it did in McCutchen's case. Actually, his offense and mobility are probably a big reason he even plays CF in the first place, so the Pirates can put other big bats in the corner OF spots but other prospects are too slow. But that doesn't mean he does his job well. We see it happen a lot of baseball now. Also, if Scioscia is clueless enough to remove Trout (a guy who can positively impact a game in many different ways) for any reason other than injury or family emergency, then yes he's an idiot, as Fredi was when he removed Heyward for Matt Diaz.

[SB75]

1) No I don't ignore what arm does for the game, it's simply not as important to have one to be a great fielder. Bonds won plenty of gold gloves (in LF but would have been good in CF), deserved all of them but his arm was mediocre. Over 162 games, a guy who can track down flyballs to rob HRs and doubles, and play caroms correctly to prevent guys from taking extra bases, will help a club more than a guy who throws out a couple runners once every few games.

Aagin I don't think you are truly reading what I typed. I agree other area's are more important. I just think you down playing arm to 5 or less% isn't accurate.

2) When Fredi Gonzalez did something stupid, I'll call it stupid, just like others in here did. Just because it's a different subject doesn't mean the policy should change.

Saying what someone did is stupid ( the action) and calling someone an idiot because they don't agree with you are two totally different things in my honest opinion.

3) Offense should not have anything to do with gold gloves, but I believe it did in McCutchen's case. Actually, his offense and mobility are probably a big reason he even plays CF in the first place, so the Pirates can put other big bats in the corner OF spots but other prospects are too slow. But that doesn't mean he does his job well. We see it happen a lot of baseball now. Also, if Scioscia is clueless enough to remove Trout (a guy who can positively impact a game in many different ways) for any reason other than injury or family emergency, then yes he's an idiot, as Fredi was when he removed Heyward for Matt Diaz.

Agai I agree offesne plays a role and it shouldn't. But exposure is everything when it comes to off-season awards. Andrew offense allowed him more exposure than Bourn's did.

So now you are calling Mike S. an idiot, for playing the better defensive player in CF? If you have someone better defensively to put in late in games, you do it. That's just good managing. You may want to take a look and read scouting reports about Peter's defense, before calling Mike S. clueless. The guy is better than Trout defensively. That was the right call by Mike S.

[Bravo95]

To be honest, the fact that you basically said you are more shocked that Freeman didn't win than Bourn tells me all I need to know about where you place the importance of range and agility, which is fascinating considering the difference in ground both players have to cover at their position and how one of them continually struggles to do it in small space while the other has already won two gold gloves playing in a difficult centerfield setup at Minute Maid Park.

[SB75]

To be honest, the fact that you basically said you are more shocked that Freeman didn't win than Bourn tells me all I need to know about where you place the importance of range and agility, which is fascinating considering the difference in ground both players have to cover at their position and how one of them continually struggles to do it in small space while the other has already won two gold gloves playing in a difficult centerfield setup at Minute Maid Park.

And now you change your point. Freeman loosing to Adam and you are sighting range? And it doesn't tell you anything about how I view range in CF. Nothing at all.

[Bravo95]

Changing my point? It's not that difficult. OK, follow me here:

Range/agility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arm strength, IMO.

.....at almost every position, again IMO. You seem to be struggling with this discussion with various posters by focusing on the wrong things. Just because Laroche won doesn't mean I would have voted for him, although he can do everything Fred does or slightly better. My point was very few players have Bourn's range and agility and it puts him at the very top, and Freeman's lack of range and agility prevents him for being a rightful contender for this award even though he is improving. I actually thought that was pretty easy to understand.

[SB75]

Changing my point? It's not that difficult. OK, follow me here:

Range/agility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arm strength, IMO.

.....at almost every position, again IMO. You seem to be struggling with this discussion with various posters by focusing on the wrong things. Just because Laroche won doesn't mean I would have voted for him, although he can do everything Fred does or slightly better. My point was very few players have Bourn's range and agility and it puts him at the very top, and Freeman's lack of range and agility prevents him for being a rightful contender for this award even though he is improving. I actually thought that was pretty easy to understand.

And now you are misrepresenting mines.... It's not that hard. I have said over and over again that arm strength is not as important, just that you are down playing it to 5 or less % is not accurate.

Me struggling? NO! You just are into not reading what's there and going on and on with a debate that is not there. Again no one said Andrew had more range than Micheal. No one said Micheal isn't elite. Just that is all you want to consider is his range and mobility.

You are just not reading what's there and going on and on about your preconceived notions. I NEVER SAID WHO OR SHOULD NOT HAVE WON, JUST NOT SURPRISED. YOU KEEPING BRINGING UP THINGS THAT WE HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON AS NEW AND NOW YOU WANT TO TRY AND BE SMART ABOUT IT! WHAT DON'T YOU GET?

Already said how good Bourns range is.
Already agreed mobility is important.
You just don't give arm strength ant credit! That is where we dissagree. So can you stop going on and on about mobility and range when that is not the disagreement!

And now you want to compare range in CF to range at 1B. That's Apples to Oranges.

[beldugo]

Agai I agree offesne plays a role and it shouldn't. But exposure is everything when it comes to off-season awards. Andrew offense allowed him more exposure than Bourn's did.

So now you are calling Mike S. an idiot, for playing the better defensive player in CF? If you have someone better defensively to put in late in games, you do it. That's just good managing. You may want to take a look and read scouting reports about Peter's defense, before calling Mike S. clueless. The guy is better than Trout defensively. That was the right call by Mike S.

Well, when it comes to Trout being replace for a better fielder is stupid in my opinion, Bourjos is a better defensive CF but he's not way ahead of Trout and why replace a very good defensive CF with an amazing bat for an amazing defensive CF with a mediocre bat?.

I'm not opposed to replacing a player in the late innings for someone better, but only if the player being replace is a below average fielder.

[SB75]

Well, when it comes to Trout being replace for a better fielder is stupid in my opinion, Bourjos is a better defensive CF but he's not way ahead of Trout and why replace a very good defensive CF with an amazing bat for an amazing defensive CF with a mediocre bat?.

I'm not opposed to replacing a player in the late innings for someone better, but only if the player being replace is a below average fielder.

I dont think Mike S. repalced him when there where huge chances of Trout getting more AB's. And more often than not he brought Peter in and pushed Trout to the corner. And as I tried to explain, absolutley nothing wrong with that, being that Peter is a better defender.

[Bravo95]

And now you are misrepresenting mines.... It's not that hard. I have said over and over again that arm strength is not as important, just that you are down playing it to 5 or less % is not accurate.

Me struggling? NO! You just are into not reading what's there and going on and on with a debate that is not there. Again no one said Andrew had more range than Micheal. No one said Micheal isn't elite. Just that is all you want to consider is his range and mobility.

You are just not reading what's there and going on and on about your preconceived notions. I NEVER SAID WHO OR SHOULD NOT HAVE WON, JUST NOT SURPRISED. YOU KEEPING BRINGING UP THINGS THAT WE HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON AS NEW AND NOW YOU WANT TO TRY AND BE SMART ABOUT IT! WHAT DON'T YOU GET?

Already said how good Bourns range is.
Already agreed mobility is important.
You just don't give arm strength ant credit! That is where we dissagree. So can you stop going on and on about mobility and range when that is not the disagreement!

And now you want to compare range in CF to range at 1B. That's Apples to Oranges.

Very sensitive. All of that bold typing, exclamation points and cap lock is unnecessary. Just type like a normal person. You brought up the Freeman-LaRoche thing in post #37, so I responded. I also said arm strength matters in some positions way more than others. Simple. You got into two full fledged arguments within 3 pages of a Gold Gloves thread, lol. Repeat: A gold gloves thread, arguably the most irrelevant award in sports. People make points and you're turning it into wars on here. About your last sentence: Regardless of position or sport really, range and agility are paramount to become an elite defender, so it's not apples and oranges. Relax with that other stuff.

[SB75]

Very sensitive. All of that bold typing, exclamation points and cap lock is unnecessary. Just type like a normal person. You brought up the Freeman-LaRoche thing in post #37, so I responded. I also said arm strength matters in some positions way more than others. Simple. You got into two full fledged arguments within 3 pages of a Gold Gloves thread, lol. Repeat: A gold gloves thread, arguably the most irrelevant award in sports. People make points and you're turning it into wars on here. About your last sentence: Regardless of position or sport really, range and agility are paramount to become an elite defender, so it's not apples and oranges. Relax with that other stuff.

LOL..... Not sensitive at all. I don't have to call names or make accusations about others to prove my point though. The bold type seems to be necesary because you keep ignoring them and arguing points that you have already made and to a degree have been agreed upon.

I have no idea why you try to use slight of hand or type in this case to make it seem as though someone brought something up that you did. My post 37 was in response to your post 36. You brought up range and mobility talking of me being more shocked at Freeman not winning and obvious dig to Freeman vs Adam at 1B in the GG.

Again blaming others for what you do? LOL...... In your world you are right. However in the real world read what's there......

[Wrench]

Jason Heyward won one, and he should have. But so should Michael Bourn and the aforementioned Prado. If we consult Baseball-Reference.com, we note that the three Braves’ outfielders led the National League at their respective positions — left, center, et cetera — in “Total Fielding Runs Above Average,” which is to say in runs saved. What’s more, the three Braves’ outfielders were, according to B-R, the three best outfielders at saving runs in the entire National League. Bourn saved 38, Heyward 23, Prado 16. (Actually Prado tied for third with the Giants’ Angel Pagan, who’s a center fielder.)

Back to FanGraphs: All three Braves’ outfielders ranked among the National League’s top 11 players in WAR (wins above replacement) index, by which sabermetricians swear. And here we see that the three Braves ranked 1-2-3 among all NL’ers at all positions in FanGraphs’ overall fielding (FLD) ratings.

The Gold Glove for National League center fielders went to Pittsburgh’s Andrew McCutchen, whose FanGraphs FLD number was minus-6.9. (This isn’t golf; miinuses aren’t good.) The Gold Glove for left fielders went to Colorado’s Carlos Gonzalez, whose FLD number was minus-8.5. Bourn’s number: Plus-22.4. Prado’s number: Plus-17.8. To borrow from the great Tennessee announcer John Ward: “Not … even … close.”

Managers and coaches vote on Gold Gloves, and not many among them are sabermetrically inclined. They use charts and numbers, sure, but they also rely on what their eyeballs tell them. And that’s my point: Sometimes in sports and particularly in baseball, our eyeballs deceive. We who watched the 2012 might not have grasped that we were observing one of the greatest defensive outfields ever assembled. But we were, and we did.

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-bl...da-been-three/

[jwn0303]

Dude just stop! If you want to argue take it elsewhere! You don't like my ideas, stop responding to my post. Again you start ish' get caught, and blame the other guy. SMH.

Bourns arm just as good as Andrews

I didn't actually start anything this time. I posted, then you discounted all of my stats and ignorantly knocked Bourn's arm strength in comparison to McCutchen's.

I have no idea where you get the impression that McCutchen has a good arm. He does not. At all.

For every season he has played. Every single outlet has rated his arm as BELOW average each season. While Bourn does not have a spectacular arm, it is better than McCutchen's. It was rated as such this year, and he has only had two years where it was BELOW average in his eleven seasons.

You actually noted in a later post...

If you going to ignore holding runners with your arm, as a part of defense, you will continue to be in shock.

The thing about that is. McCutchen does NOT hold runners with his arm. Again, this is something that people study, and have noted him as below average in the very thing that you are trying to credit him for.

However I do not think he is the only elite defender in CF in the MLB.

He isn't. There are three of them in baseball actually. Andrew McCutchen is not even in the vicinity of this list in any regard at all.

(list includes Trout, Bourn, and Denard Span... Austin Jackson is close to this tier)

They talked about giving Trout one and he get's replaced on his own team in CF late in games for defense by Bourjos.

Now this is the most laughable thing I have ever read. Mike Trout is an absolutely phenomenal defender. In fact he was awarded with the fielding bible's best center fielder this season almost unanimously.

And as I tried to explain, absolutley nothing wrong with that, being that Peter is a better defender.

That is quite debatable actually. Since according to almost every outlet Trout was the best center fielder in the American League this year.

Again blaming others for what you do? LOL...... In your world you are right. However in the real world read what's there......

Lastly we get to your personal issues. You seem to have this SAME problem with almost every poster on these boards. If it comes up with multiple people... that's a pretty telling sign that it is YOU causing problems.