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  1. #781
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    I don't rate him highly. You just undervalue him a ton. I personally think he would cost more than he should, but once again, opinion doesn't matter. The market is thin and people are going to get overpayed.

    But there's no way in hell he and a TOR pitcher are worth a back end starter and backup 1B. Just doesnt make sense. You may think so, but that's your biased opinion, not what it would actually take.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  2. #782
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    No offense, but anyone who uses just WAR to judge players is just as ignorant as someone who only uses traditional stats.

    WAR is alright when using other stats, both Sabr AND traditional. Both are far from perfect. Both should be used to get as much information as possible.

    I do enjoy traditional stats more, but I of course use some Sabr stats as well.

    Just felt like putting this is here.
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  3. #783
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    Who only used WAR?

    I also used his triple slash, wOBA and wRC+, and talked about his defense. WAR was just a quick snapshot. If someone puts up 9 WAR, they had a great year. I don't care whether you like it or not.

    I will not use average by itself, or RBI at all. HR are fine in certain situations, but low HR doesn't almost mean a lesser player.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  4. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by yankees90. View Post
    No offense, but anyone who uses just WAR to judge players is just as ignorant as someone who only uses traditional stats.

    WAR is alright when using other stats, both Sabr AND traditional. Both are far from perfect. Both should be used to get as much information as possible.

    I do enjoy traditional stats more, but I of course use some Sabr stats as well.

    Just felt like putting this is here.
    Of course.

    Most sabr-friendly people and posters recognize the importance of information. The more information, the better the answers. No one stat/information by itself will really have any meaning.

    I mean I could tell you Player A: 6 WAR
    Player B: 6 WAR

    So at first glance, you think, okay, equal players.

    What I didn't tell you is that Player A played twice as many games, plays centerfield and most of his value is from defense.

    While Player B is a massive offensive force who plays DH.

    They are not equal in value without the proper context. That's why more information the better, always. If I ever simply say a players WAR, everyone should know that I am only using it as a reference point, or a snap shot stat for quick posting and not in an overall assessment of a players value.

  5. #785
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    [QUOTE=yankees90.;24867339]No offense, but anyone who uses just WAR to judge players is just as ignorant as someone who only uses traditional stats.

    WAR is alright when using other stats, both Sabr AND traditional. Both are far from perfect. Both should be used to get as much information as possible.

    I do enjoy traditional stats more, but I of course use some Sabr stats as well.

    Just felt like putting this is here.[/QUOTE

    I feel the same way.

  6. #786
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    [QUOTE=willyssox;24867416]
    Quote Originally Posted by yankees90. View Post
    No offense, but anyone who uses just WAR to judge players is just as ignorant as someone who only uses traditional stats.

    WAR is alright when using other stats, both Sabr AND traditional. Both are far from perfect. Both should be used to get as much information as possible.

    I do enjoy traditional stats more, but I of course use some Sabr stats as well.

    Just felt like putting this is here.[/QUOTE

    I feel the same way.
    No, you think WAR is useless.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  7. #787
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    [QUOTE=jej;24867457]
    Quote Originally Posted by willyssox View Post

    No, you think WAR is useless.
    Ya ok, try talking to someone else because I dont care.

  8. #788
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    What? You said yourself you think it is useless.

    You really need to figure out what you are trying to accomplish. You have to be able to discuss and take criticism without acting like a child.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  9. #789
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    I agree Jeffy.

    And I wasn't specifically talking about you jej. Just speaking in general. I jump from thread to thread, and it seems like some use WAR as an end all or perfect stat.

    P.S. WAR is not "useless" so long as you use other stats get as much info as possible. Traditional stats and sabr stats are not perfect. But combined, they give you the most information you can possibly get on a certain player.
    New York Yankees
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    Bundesliga: Wins- 25 / Draw- 3 / Loss- 2
    DFB-Pokal-Wins- 4 / Loss- 0 Semi-Finals vs. Kaiserslautern April 16th
    Champions League- Semi-Finals vs. Real Madrid.

    1st Leg- April 23rd in Madrid.
    2nd Leg- April 29th in Munich.

  10. #790
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    This thread is boring me for pages now.. Can we debate imaginary Red Sox offers (for this long) in the Red Sox forum?

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by yankees90. View Post
    P.S. WAR is not "useless" so long as you use other stats get as much info as possible. Traditional stats and sabr stats are not perfect. But combined, they give you the most information you can possibly get on a certain player.

    Think about the money and the effort teams are spending on their analytical departments?? Id imagine the stats found on baseball reference and fangraphs is like kindergarden math compared to the stuff teams generate.

    Kevin Goldstein did a podcast a few weeks back and kind of got into the amount of data teams use.. He was not specific for obvious reasons... I.E. he works for Astro's now instead of Baseball Prospectus..
    The podcast is called Effectively Wild.. You can find it on Itunes.. Its a good listen..

  12. #792
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    There has been quite a bit written about Asdrubal Cabrera going to the Cardinal, however, with the holidays, the amount of discussion has slowed considerably. The St Louis Post Dispatch (Strauss & Gooold), St Louis Today, Redbird Rants, Viva El Birdos, etc. have all written articles both promoting and poo-poo'ing a trade between the Indians and the Cardinals.. Without belaboring the point to the nth degree, but it's being couched by these sources that the Cardinals are in the driver's seat for a trade to happen.. or are they? Personally, I don't care who drives the bus, just as long as it gets to it's destination.. in this case, an equitable trade that satisfies both the current and future needs of both clubs has to be achieved for a deal to be struck. Specifically, the SS position.. In the end, simple works..

    Here's simple: Adrubal Cabrera alone to St Louis for Joe Kelly, Lance Lynn and Matt Carpenter. This deal was 'floated" by Moz and, imho, stupidly rejected by the Indians who wanted more. Well.. snooze you lose for the Indians. That is a trade that they should have done..

    Now, 6 weeks later.. the market has shifted some.. and there are more factors coming into play.. The Cardinals don't want to solve their SS position for only 2 years.. they want to extend the solution out into the future.. The Indians.. are dealing with just the opposite situation.. they want to solve their lack of SP talent, but they are focused more on what can be done to improve the team in 2013 or now !

    So, how does this work. Well?.. the Indians have the depth at the SS spot that fits the Cards needs.. the Cards have the major league ready talent the Indians need.. so:

    Cardinals get: Asdrubal Cabrera SS, Vinnie Pestano RP, Francisco Lindor SS
    Indians get: Jake Westbrook orJaime Garcia (pending a physical check out of Garcia..choice by the Indians), Joe Kelly, Lance Lynn, Matt Carpenter, Matt Adams, and Oscar Taveras.

    A match that fixes both teams needs usually has bias applied. Most Cardinals fans look at the loss of Westbrook as a "who cares.. good riddance..etc) In reality, both Jaime and Jake's AAV w/ options is about $ 9 MM / yr. Jake for two years.. Jaime for 5. If $ 9 MM is sent away with one of these two SP's, then the Cardinals would be easily able to resign Kyle Lohse, no problema.

    The bias part of the trade involves the two # 1 Prospects.. As much as St Louis fans want to claim OT is going to be the next great OF'er.. the same is being said about Lindor and his incredible ability at SS.. Indian fans rightfully state that SS is a premium position and should be worth more..while Cardinal fans state.. OT is READY RIGHT NOW.. Both arguments are biased.. and hold water..

    The purpose of this posting is to solicit response.. what say you?...
    this was purposed by an Indian's fan to us in the Cards forum

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  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeDirt05 View Post
    this was purposed by an Indian's fan to us in the Cards forum
    Taveras has a greater value than Lindor, and is much closer.

    They aren't equally tradeable prospects, and Garcia isn't equal to Westbrook in value either.


    Carpenter and Kelly or Lynn and maybe a Tyrell Jenkins level prospect for Cabrera I thought was fair.

    Before their off-season signings, I was suggesting Kelly, Jenkins and Adams for Cabrera, but that wasn't really a fit for both teams well enough either.

    Taveras won't be moved, he is our full time right fielder in 2014 and beyond. Lindor is an awesome prospect, and the Cards would love to have him, but that's too much to get him.

  14. #794
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    Marlins not shopping, but listening on Stanton

    Marlins Will Listen On Giancarlo Stanton
    By Zach Links [December 30, 2012 at 10:29am CST]
    In the wake of the Marlins' blockbuster deal with the Blue Jays, the Marlins publicly stated that they wouldn't trade Giancarlo Stanton. Assistant General Manager Dan Jennings says that the club isn't shopping the right fielder, but they will listen to all offers for him, according to Jim Bowden of SiriusXM (on Twitter).

    Teams have been inquiring on Stanton ever since the Marlins shipped Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle, and Josh Johnson to Toronto in November. Stanton was vocal about his displeasure with the Marlins' front office after the trade and agent Joel Wolfe declined comment earlier this month when asked if his client had requested a trade.

    Jennings also told Bowden (Twitter link) that Miami isn't going to surprise anyone and pursue any of the top free agents left on the open market. As the MLBTR Transaction Tracker shows, the Marlins have only signed two free agents so far this winter: Placido Polanco and Juan Pierre.


    Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/1...GZdG0IPYc3F.99
    Okay so I understand that the Marlins aren't shopping Stanton, and most likely won't trade him, but obviously he is unhappy about the situation in Miami.

    If they were to trade him, I'm curious to know what you guys think it would take. Would love to see my Mariners throw something out there but I'm sure it would take a whole lot. What would a good starting point be?

  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Taveras has a greater value than Lindor, and is much closer.

    They aren't equally tradeable prospects, and Garcia isn't equal to Westbrook in value either.


    Carpenter and Kelly or Lynn and maybe a Tyrell Jenkins level prospect for Cabrera I thought was fair.

    Before their off-season signings, I was suggesting Kelly, Jenkins and Adams for Cabrera, but that wasn't really a fit for both teams well enough either.

    Taveras won't be moved, he is our full time right fielder in 2014 and beyond. Lindor is an awesome prospect, and the Cards would love to have him, but that's too much to get him.
    In this market, with quality SP's being at a premium, obtaining a pair of SP candidates, one for right now (Kelly) and one for development (Jenkins), along with the much needed power bat in Adams, that deal is certainly worth consideration. Sadly, it wouldn't be a deal that would be acceptable.. primarily due to the projection of the player involved..

    Why the sadness?. The major issue in this proposed trade come from Joe Kelly. After watching how he's been developed & how he approaches his game, you can see that he has a major league arm, commands the strike zone and will contribute, but, not as a starter. When you evaluate him for his stuff, his secondary offerings (after his sinking fastball) are mediocre / average. He is much more suited to becoming an RP with his ceiling being a back of the pen primary set up man on a good team/veteran team or a closer.

    He should not be a starter.. If the choice was Lance Lynn, then no question about it.. he'd be a fine choice and projects as a middle of the rotation starter with a limited, but, impressive ceiling. There would be no issues with Lance Lynn as one of the players involved in this trade....

    Now, onto Tyrell Jenkins.. First off, he can and should be a starter, however, he won't be ready to contribute at the ML level for quite some time. He's too far away from being relevant to be considered for a trade. At present, because he is SOOO raw, he could only be considered a "throw in". The Cardinals would NEVER throw a guy like this into a trade (at least I don't think they would, and, tbh, they shouldn't).. Jenkins has too much upside to be tossed away like that.. The biggest issue with Jenkins is the amount of time it's going to take to get him ready.. For this reason, he should be excluded..

    Matt Adams is a perfect fit for what the Indians want and who the Cardinals are inclined to move in a trade. In short, he'd be a welcome addition in trade if the other part(s) were amenable to both clubs..

    So, your trade wouldn't work if Tyrell Jenkins was included. Not because Jenkins isn't a talent that is needed/desired, he's just too much of a risk for the Indians to take on..and has too much upside for the Cardinals to include. Someone else, or, a change to the trade is warranted..

    Onto the "purposed" trade (yeah, IDK what that word is, either): The trade proposed with Vinnie Pestano and Fancisco Lindor along with Asdrubal offered the Cards with what has been stated by Moz:

    "...we are looking for a solution to the SS position for 2013 and several years following...."

    The addition of Asdrubal Cabrera cover the 2013 and 2014 season allowing Lindor the time needed to be readied for MLB.. He could then be a part of the keystone combination of Lindor to Wong. That kind of DP combination is almost worth the price of admission.. It would be sort of like Ozzie Smith and Tommy Herr.. or Omar Vizquel and Robbie Alomar.. Francisco Lindor would cover any time subsequent to then for the Cardinals and give them, essentially, 8 years, perhaps more, control w/ an All Star SS and one of the best SS prospects in MiLB not named Profar (who is unavailable).

    -Vinnie Pestano is considered one of the best if not THEE best set up pitchers in the American League. He's young, under control and could become the Cardinals' Chris Perez, a "lights out" "Game Over" shutdown closer. Just like the indians got from the Cardinals (along with Jess Todd) a few years back. This would be a kind of pay back..

    BTW.. for those that think an elite SS is just as easy to find, develop and be successful in baseball as a corner OF'er like Oscar Taveras.. You're kidding yourself.. Open up your eyes.. smell the coffee..

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