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  1. #766
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    I discuss them too. But I don't act as tho what I say matters, or that the other person is the reason the team isn't improving.

    And I did give something before, but you chose to ignore it.

    I said Paxton+, and even that's probably not enough. I don't know the details, and neither do you. There's hundreds of possibilities, I don't want to go thru each one like you want to.

    And you have under 100 posts, so "all the time" is probably a stretch. You have to learn to take criticism of your trades. And realize that not everyone wants to talk about possible trade and all the details cause once again, what we say doesn't matter.

    If you want to think Ramirez and Smoak for Ells and Lester makes sense, good for you. Why do you need to know what I think about it? Is that gonna make it happen? No. We have no control over anything.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  2. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    I discuss them too. But I don't act as tho what I say matters, or that the other person is the reason the team isn't improving.

    And I did give something before, but you chose to ignore it.

    I said Paxton+, and even that's probably not enough. I don't know the details, and neither do you. There's hundreds of possibilities, I don't want to go thru each one like you want to.

    And you have under 100 posts, so "all the time" is probably a stretch. You have to learn to take criticism of your trades. And realize that not everyone wants to talk about possible trade and all the details cause once again, what we say doesn't matter.

    If you want to think Ramirez and Smoak for Ells and Lester makes sense, good for you. Why do you need to know what I think about it? Is that gonna make it happen? No. We have no control over anything.
    Because anytime you criticize someone you open yourself up for return criticism. Im not sure where the Paxton thing came from because I dont think you ever sent that to me. As for it not making a difference because we arent gm's, no kidding but anyone that can sit there and criticize can also constructively offer a viable solution otherwise your just being a dick no?

  3. #768
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    If I really had to say, it would probably be Paxton+. But again, no one knows what the plus would be, or what it would take at all.
    Once again, you arent reading well.



    No. Disagreeing is not being a dick. You have to learn that if you want to be able to post here. I dont have to play your pointless game to tell you that that wouldnt be enough for Jacoby and Lester. I said it would take more, and it would.

    You are taking your own biased anger toward the players and acting as tho it is market value, and thats not true. You have even contradicted yourself by saying that the market is thin and "this is what this person got" and stuff like that. You just dont seem to understand market value.

    For example, the fact that people dont want to sign those guys that require a pick HELPS Ellsbury's value, but you acted like it hurt.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  4. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    Once again, you arent reading well.



    No. Disagreeing is not being a dick. You have to learn that if you want to be able to post here. I dont have to play your pointless game to tell you that that wouldnt be enough for Jacoby and Lester. I said it would take more, and it would.

    You are taking your own biased anger toward the players and acting as tho it is market value, and thats not true. You have even contradicted yourself by saying that the market is thin and "this is what this person got" and stuff like that. You just dont seem to understand market value.

    For example, the fact that people dont want to sign those guys that require a pick HELPS Ellsbury's value, but you acted like it hurt.
    I did no such thing. Ellsbury has little value because he cant stay healthy and when he was healthy he sucked. Period. Lester has more value but not enough to get a player like Myers. Period

  5. #770
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    Ellsbury has a lot more value than you think. He has had injury problems yes, but he hasnt sucked at all like you say. Your player analysis is piss poor.

    Career .297/.349/.442 hitter with plus defense in a premium position. Nothing about that sucks.

    He also posted a WAR of 9 in 2011, thanks to very good defense, a .400 wOBA and 149 wRC+.

    You are letting what you think merge with what teams will see. They will see a guy with huge upside, despite the injuries, who had one of the better years a guy can have, in a depleted market, and will pay for him.

    Shin Soo Choo, a similar player with less upside but is more proven, netted Trevor Bauer+ dude.

    The difference between Choo and Ellsbury =/= the difference between Bauer and Erasmo.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  6. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post


    Ellsbury has a lot more value than you think. He has had injury problems yes, but he hasnt sucked at all like you say. Your player analysis is piss poor.

    Career .297/.349/.442 hitter with plus defense in a premium position. Nothing about that sucks.

    He also posted a WAR of 9 in 2011, thanks to very good defense, a .400 wOBA and 149 wRC+.

    You are letting what you think merge with what teams will see. They will see a guy with huge upside, despite the injuries, who had one of the better years a guy can have, in a depleted market, and will pay for him.

    Shin Soo Choo, a similar player with less upside but is more proven, netted Trevor Bauer+ dude.

    The difference between Choo and Ellsbury =/= the difference between Bauer and Erasmo.
    Ellsbury 2012- 74G, 4 HR, 26RBI, .271AVG, .313OBP, .682 OPS. Ya those are great numbers, not. In all of baseball that puts Ells at #39 for games, #28 for HR's, #29 for RBI's, #26 for AVG, #35 for OBP, #39 for OPS. He isnt worth anything unless he goes back to being the player from 2011 and he had time after coming back from injury to prove he could be and didnt. And the fact the Sox havent netted a Bauer, a Myers, anything for him or anyone else shows that 1. Ben C is inept and 2. his players arent worth much.

  7. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyssox View Post
    I did no such thing. Ellsbury has little value because he cant stay healthy and when he was healthy he sucked. Period. Lester has more value but not enough to get a player like Myers. Period
    When Ellsbury was healthy he sucked?

    He deserved to win the 2011 MVP.

    Are we talking about the same Ellsbury?

  8. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    When Ellsbury was healthy he sucked?

    He deserved to win the 2011 MVP.

    Are we talking about the same Ellsbury?
    I said last year he sucked, last year was 2012.

  9. #774
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    What I'm most confused about is, aren't you a Red Sox fan? And you are UNDER-rating the value of Lester and Ellsbury? Most Sox fans are still in love with each of these guys and expect the moon for them. You want a 5th starter and a backup first basemen with some potential left.


    Both are still decently good players. Ellsbury is fantastic when he is on the field since developing some power. The kind of player he will be moving forward will largely depend on his health. When healthy, you can probably expect a 4-6 WAR player who can play center. Pretty valuable asset. But with one year until he is a free agent (and he will test free agency) his trade value is to a contender that can afford to give up two mid to upper tiered prospects and welcome the compensation pick for him leaving after next season (or try to re-sign him and compete with everyone else).

    Lester has pitched like an ace before. Last year he was bad, being a lefty there are some question marks, but he has value and some years of control left. He would likely cost more than Ellsbury at this point. I think two top tier prospects would be reasonable. I can see the Sox wanting a replacement mid rotation pitcher who is younger. But I don't see them trading Lester at this point, he has more value if he can redeem himself in 2013.


    I don't know why you want to get rid of these guys. Ellsbury makes sense if you don't plan to try to win in 2013 (you probably wont) so unloading him now while he can still net his next team a draft pick is probably best in a value perspective.

  10. #775
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    No, you didn't say last year. You said when he was healthy he sucked.

    Way to pick counting stats out of a season in which he played 74 games and compare them to the league....

    How about we look at more than just 74 games when we are evaluating players? Same with Lester, look at more than just one year, and one stat. He was an ace for three straight years and a #2-3 the last two.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  11. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyssox View Post
    I said last year he sucked, last year was 2012.
    He had 300 injury-plagued plate appearances.

    I would look to trade Ellsbury to the highest bidder, and probably keep Lester personally.

    If the Red Sox can show some new life in 2013, and Lester is decent, you'll want him around for 2014 on his last year of his team option, and then likely re-sign him. If he is decent, but the Red Sox suck, then you can trade him next off-season. And if he sucks, regardless of the teams performance, you can just let him walk for nothing (or re-sign him for cheaper).

    But that's just me.

  12. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    What I'm most confused about is, aren't you a Red Sox fan? And you are UNDER-rating the value of Lester and Ellsbury? Most Sox fans are still in love with each of these guys and expect the moon for them. You want a 5th starter and a backup first basemen with some potential left.


    Both are still decently good players. Ellsbury is fantastic when he is on the field since developing some power. The kind of player he will be moving forward will largely depend on his health. When healthy, you can probably expect a 4-6 WAR player who can play center. Pretty valuable asset. But with one year until he is a free agent (and he will test free agency) his trade value is to a contender that can afford to give up two mid to upper tiered prospects and welcome the compensation pick for him leaving after next season (or try to re-sign him and compete with everyone else).

    Lester has pitched like an ace before. Last year he was bad, being a lefty there are some question marks, but he has value and some years of control left. He would likely cost more than Ellsbury at this point. I think two top tier prospects would be reasonable. I can see the Sox wanting a replacement mid rotation pitcher who is younger. But I don't see them trading Lester at this point, he has more value if he can redeem himself in 2013.


    I don't know why you want to get rid of these guys. Ellsbury makes sense if you don't plan to try to win in 2013 (you probably wont) so unloading him now while he can still net his next team a draft pick is probably best in a value perspective.
    I am a lifelong Sox fan but I hate Lester and Im sick of Ellsbury being injured. And I cant stand players walking away and getting nothing in return or just a pick. I want to trade these guys and build for the future Now. I just named Ramirez ( who I do like) and Smoak( who I could care less about but they seem set on signing the terrible fielding Napoli so...) as Options only, I have come up with other players/scenarios as well. I was hoping to get Jones with Hanrahan but instead we got another little 2nd basemen/utility guy. Besides Ells and Lester I want them to trade Salty and Bailey as well. Sox fans have been sitting here all winter watching the Jays make trades they should have been in on, TB/KC made a trade they should have been in on, Cinn./Clev. they should have been in on, LAA/Seattle they should have been in on, some one of those but no, nothing until this Hammer trade and we still have excess players and we still have a ton of needs.

  13. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    No, you didn't say last year. You said when he was healthy he sucked.

    Way to pick counting stats out of a season in which he played 74 games and compare them to the league....

    How about we look at more than just 74 games when we are evaluating players? Same with Lester, look at more than just one year, and one stat. He was an ace for three straight years and a #2-3 the last two.
    I believe I said after he came back from injury ( last year) he didnt prove himself and he sucked, that is true, stop splitting hairs. Why wouldnt I compare him to the rest of the league, what are you doing when you post a players WAR or VORP? And as far as evaluating a player, since Ellsbury has Only had 1 good/great year, 1 healthy year( same year), what is there to compare exactly? He's 29 years old, not a prospect anymore, has only 1 year left of his pact, has Never remained a healthy player so he doesnt have a good track record and only 1 positive year to fall back on, that isnt much and teams wouldnt give you much for that but I'll take whatever we can because it has to be better than a draft pick.

  14. #779
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    I am looking at his career, not 74 injury plagued games. That's not how it works. It doesn't tell you anything valuable.

    Of course he won't have a lot of HR or anything if he only plays half a season. Think about it dude.

    He has been well above average for his career, and that's much more valuable than half a season.

    And BTW:
    Ellsbury has little value because he cant stay healthy and when he was healthy he sucked
    Nothing there about last year or anything. I'm not splitting hairs, I am calling your BS
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  15. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    I am looking at his career, not 74 injury plagued games. That's not how it works. It doesn't tell you anything valuable.

    Of course he won't have a lot of HR or anything if he only plays half a season. Think about it dude.

    He has been well above average for his career, and that's much more valuable than half a season.

    And BTW:


    Nothing there about last year or anything. I'm not splitting hairs, I am calling your BS
    But G.M.'s have a "what have you done for me lately" approach with players, whether you can see it or not. ellsbury value is at it's lowest right now, every article written about him says the same thing. You rate him highly, fantastic, you can have him, Im ready to move on from him.

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