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  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyssox View Post
    Lester, 2011, May- 4-1, 5.50ERA, 1.61WHIP Not good/ September- 1-3, 5.40ERA, 1.61WHIP Not good. In between he was great but you cant forget those 2 months along with last year.
    I would say it's been more than a year. He isnt the Ace this team needs and should be traded.
    Way to hand pick his worst months and ignore the rest.

    2011: 3.47 ERA 3.83 FIP 3.62 xFIP 3.7 WAR

    2012: 4.82 ERA, 4.11 FIP, 3.82 xFIP, 3.3 WAR

    His last two years were his worst, yes, but he was still an above average pitcher. And lets not forget the three years before when he was an ace, posting WARs of 5.1, 6.4, and 5.8.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    When he is rumored to be good enough to net Wil Myers, do you really think he and a possible all star CF will net less than that? How does that make any sense?
    Because he wasnt enough to net Myers, that was ultimately why he went to Tampa. The Royals said publicly that the other pitcher they got was the reason they went with that deal, the Sox could not equal the arms that TB had. So straight up Lester wasnt enough. Just like the Sox offered Ellsbury straight up for Lee and the Phillies didnt even pause, they gave a flat out No. Ben is over valueing his players and its costing him.

  3. #753
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    Okay, but dont you think Lester and Ellsbury would be enough to get Myers+?
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  4. #754
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    One thing you dont understand about trade value is that while a player having one year left is a drawback, it doesnt mean the team will be OK with trading him for less than he is worth.

    The Red Sox probably wouldnt get what they want for Ellsbury because of the one year deal, but that doesnt mean they are just going to settle and make an awful trade just cause.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    Okay, but dont you think Lester and Ellsbury would be enough to get Myers+?
    Maybe but how is that any different than my trade proposal in this thread- Lester & Ellsbury for E. Ramirez (SP) and Smoak (1st base). We need Starters
    ( Ramirez is only 22 and has risen in Seattle's deep pitching system very quickly) and IF they sign Napoli we'll need a backup 1st basemen. I know Smoak had a very high ceiling and has never met those expectations but that doesnt mean he never will And since we will need a backup when Napoli signs then... I think we'd have a greater chance of making this trade happen than we ever had in getting Myers or Bauer...
    I was pizzed when the Sox werent in on the Jays/Marlins trade, Royal/TB trade, the Seattle/LAA trade, the Bauer trade. I also havent been happy with the signings they've mad, especially for that kind of money.

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    One thing you dont understand about trade value is that while a player having one year left is a drawback, it doesnt mean the team will be OK with trading him for less than he is worth.

    The Red Sox probably wouldnt get what they want for Ellsbury because of the one year deal, but that doesnt mean they are just going to settle and make an awful trade just cause.
    Normally I would agree with you, regarding the 1 year thing BUT there have been other trades involving players with only 1 year left. PLUS the new rules involving draft pick compensation have played a huge factor in signings and trades this year. Teams have been very reluctant to sign top tier free agents
    ( Lohse, Laroche, Bourn..., all very good players) because of the lose of a high pick and have been much more willing to trade for a guy, regardless of contract, because they know if they trade Now they will get a pick when said player walks, increasing that players value.

  7. #757
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    Lol. Erasmo and Smoak does not equal Myers+. Myers didnt go alone either. There were other good specs in there, and they got 2 YEARS OF SHIELDS and a back end starter/reliever out of it.

    Lester and Ellsbury > Shields and Davis.

    RA Dickey on a one year deal just got a top catching spec and more.

    And you just proved my point in your last post. People's trade values are high right now, yet you think all Lester and Ellsbury would get is a back end starter and bust backup 1B? C'mon dude.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    Lol. Erasmo and Smoak does not equal Myers+. Myers didnt go alone either. There were other good specs in there, and they got 2 YEARS OF SHIELDS and a back end starter/reliever out of it.

    Lester and Ellsbury > Shields and Davis.

    RA Dickey on a one year deal just got a top catching spec and more.

    And you just proved my point in your last post. People's trade values are high right now, yet you think all Lester and Ellsbury would get is a back end starter and bust backup 1B? C'mon dude.

    Shields is better than Lester and for the record, Lester only has 2 years left on his deal too. And the reliever the Royals got obviuosly is thought of more highly than anything ( even ellsbury) the Sox could have offered. You are assuming that ramirez will remain a #5 starter, he's 22 and try reading his scouting report, he's labeled as a #3 starter.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyssox View Post
    Shields is better than Lester and for the record, Lester only has 2 years left on his deal too. And the reliever the Royals got obviuosly is thought of more highly than anything ( even ellsbury) the Sox could have offered. You are assuming that ramirez will remain a #5 starter, he's 22 and try reading his scouting report, he's labeled as a #3 starter.
    Exactly, thats my point. His value wasnt as poor as you want to claim Lesters is because of his contract.

    BAHAHAHAHAHAH oh my god, are you kidding? Wade Davis > Ellsbury?

    You obviously are having trouble understanding what I am saying. The Sox didnt offer Ellsbury and Lester. I was proving the point that they are worth more than Ramirez and Smoak.

    Pretty simple. Myers and Odorrizi > Ramirez and Smoak, and Lester and Ellsbury > Shields and Davis.

    No, im not assuming that. Right now he is a #4-5, and has a #3 ceiling. That isnt worth a proven #2-3 and all star CF who posted 9 WAR in 2011.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    Exactly, thats my point. His value wasnt as poor as you want to claim Lesters is because of his contract.

    BAHAHAHAHAHAH oh my god, are you kidding? Wade Davis > Ellsbury?

    You obviously are having trouble understanding what I am saying. The Sox didnt offer Ellsbury and Lester. I was proving the point that they are worth more than Ramirez and Smoak.

    Pretty simple. Myers and Odorrizi > Ramirez and Smoak, and Lester and Ellsbury > Shields and Davis.

    No, im not assuming that. Right now he is a #4-5, and has a #3 ceiling. That isnt worth a proven #2-3 and all star CF who posted 9 WAR in 2011.

    That was 2011, Ellsbury cant stay healthy, and when he was he didnt hit anywhere near those numbers. Ellsbury and Lester are the most overrated players in baseball it's insane. You want to keep them, dont trade them and get nothing in return when they leave go ahead, oh and continue to watch the Sox suck for 2 more years than be my guest. Im done with them and you.

  11. #761
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    Hahah ok buddy. I dont want to keep them. Im not a Sox fan, and even if I was I AM NOT A GM. Neither are you like you seem to think.

    Your own personal feelings have nothing to do with actual market value. I agree Ellsbury is overrated, but that has nothing to do with this. If anything, that further proves my point. Lester isnt overrated at all IMO. If anything he is underrated. Over 5 WAR three years in a row, and over 3 the last two.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    Hahah ok buddy. I dont want to keep them. Im not a Sox fan, and even if I was I AM NOT A GM. Neither are you like you seem to think.

    Your own personal feelings have nothing to do with actual market value. I agree Ellsbury is overrated, but that has nothing to do with this. If anything, that further proves my point. Lester isnt overrated at all IMO. If anything he is underrated. Over 5 WAR three years in a row, and over 3 the last two.
    And yet another overrated stat that means nothing. You and Bill James can cry over the same beer when the Sox suck because you, him and Ben dont want to make moves to genuinely improve this team for the future. And it's easy to be an arm chair quarterback and throw criticism's out there, how about offering a legitimate trade proposal to improve the team for now and the future? That would require too much work apparently, much easier to sit there and biotch...

  13. #763
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    What are you even talking about?

    1) WAR matters just as much as any other stat. Just cause you dont understand it doesnt mean its not real.

    2)Once again, what I say has nothing to do with the team improving. Why do you keep acting like I am the one holding the team back? I have no say, but if I did, it would make a lot more sense than your ideas.

    3) HOW IS ME THROWING OUT AN IDEA GOING TO DO ANYTHING? It doesnt matter what I say, we arent GMs. Me suggesting a trade wont do **** for the team, because I have nothing to do with the damn team.

    4) Why do you keep assuming I want to help the Sox? I am not a sox fan, so I have no interest in helping them for the future. And apparantly you dont either if you want Erasmo and Smoak for Lester and Ellsbury.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    What are you even talking about?

    1) WAR matters just as much as any other stat. Just cause you dont understand it doesnt mean its not real.

    2)Once again, what I say has nothing to do with the team improving. Why do you keep acting like I am the one holding the team back? I have no say, but if I did, it would make a lot more sense than your ideas.

    3) HOW IS ME THROWING OUT AN IDEA GOING TO DO ANYTHING? It doesnt matter what I say, we arent GMs. Me suggesting a trade wont do **** for the team, because I have nothing to do with the damn team.

    4) Why do you keep assuming I want to help the Sox? I am not a sox fan, so I have no interest in helping them for the future. And apparantly you dont either if you want Erasmo and Smoak for Lester and Ellsbury.
    I think the Braves should trade Reed Johnson for Ryan Braun, and if you dare ****ing disagree with me you're just a hater who doesn't know what's right for the Braves!

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    What are you even talking about?

    1) WAR matters just as much as any other stat. Just cause you dont understand it doesnt mean its not real.

    2)Once again, what I say has nothing to do with the team improving. Why do you keep acting like I am the one holding the team back? I have no say, but if I did, it would make a lot more sense than your ideas.

    3) HOW IS ME THROWING OUT AN IDEA GOING TO DO ANYTHING? It doesnt matter what I say, we arent GMs. Me suggesting a trade wont do **** for the team, because I have nothing to do with the damn team.

    4) Why do you keep assuming I want to help the Sox? I am not a sox fan, so I have no interest in helping them for the future. And apparantly you dont either if you want Erasmo and Smoak for Lester and Ellsbury.
    Whatever, I can see pretty clearly that you just cant do it, much easier to just sit back and criticize, glad you dont come to the Sox message board because we discuss trade options all the time, too much for you. How about you just avoid my posts.

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