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  1. #211
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    How?
    Beyond every number thrown out there? Beyond him being younger, faster, better defensively, better offensively? What other way could he be better?

    Why are you putting this in a vacuum and assuming the Cardinals wouldn't be able to make a move on their pitching staff? Sure the pitcher might not be as amazingly cost controlled (the goal!) as Lynn, but I am sure the Cardinals might find a way to recover. Are Matt Adams and Tyrell Jenkins, the two suggestions, REALLY going to be a huge loss to the organization for a starting SS?

    And he isn't better enough to warrant 3 assets, especially when that platoon still exists.
    That platoon is highly mediocre, existing isn't some special gift they offer to baseball. Andrus is better and if the Cardinals FO chose to pursue him it would make perfect sense. He fits right in with the group of young players coming up as well and would form an excellent new core with Miller, Tavares, Rosenthal, Jay, Freese, and possibly Wong.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    I didn't. Andrus is significantly better than your suggested platoon.
    How?


    And he isn't better enough to warrant 3 assets, especially when that platoon still exists.


    Andrus nets the Cardinals maybe 20 more runs in 2013....maybe, and possibly again in 2014.

    And then he leaves, and we actually need Lynn in 2014.

    We lose those 20 runs, combined 40 runs in the 16 seasons we have over team control over these 3 players.
    We ain't ever gona see Adams he is blocked by Craig and Craig is blocked by freese, Matt and soon to be Oscar from moving to another position. We card fans have been *****ing for years that we wanted a good/great SS so does every other team in the league not to often does a good one become available and I think we need to swoop in and get him sure we only have 2 years guaranteed with him but we will have money to offer him with carp and Westbrook leaving soon. I just think Lynn is worth getting a stud SS one that stays healthy and looks like a younger better hitter of furcal. But I know how much you like Lynn so I know you want to hold on to him.

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  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    How?
    Beyond every number thrown out there? Beyond him being younger, faster, better defensively, better offensively? What other way could he be better?

    Why are you putting this in a vacuum and assuming the Cardinals wouldn't be able to make a move on their pitching staff? Sure the pitcher might not be as amazingly cost controlled (the goal!) as Lynn, but I am sure the Cardinals might find a way to recover. Are Matt Adams and Tyrell Jenkins, the two suggestions, REALLY going to be a huge loss to the organization for a starting SS?

    And he isn't better enough to warrant 3 assets, especially when that platoon still exists.
    That platoon is highly mediocre, existing isn't some special gift they offer to baseball. Andrus is better and if the Cardinals FO chose to pursue him it would make perfect sense. He fits right in with the group of young players coming up as well and would form an excellent new core with Miller, Tavares, Rosenthal, Jay, Freese, and possibly Wong.
    I have to agree with the bolded statement a person could argue that Kozma cost us a shot at the World Series because the innings the giants went of were because of easy plays that he made an error on a play Andrus makes it 10/10 times and we win one of those last 3 and the series

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  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    Beyond every number thrown out there? Beyond him being younger, faster, better defensively, better offensively? What other way could he be better?

    Why are you putting this in a vacuum and assuming the Cardinals wouldn't be able to make a move on their pitching staff? Sure the pitcher might not be as amazingly cost controlled (the goal!) as Lynn, but I am sure the Cardinals might find a way to recover. Are Matt Adams and Tyrell Jenkins, the two suggestions, REALLY going to be a huge loss to the organization for a starting SS?
    So in order to justify this negative move, we have to make another move to replace Lynn?


    And again, I clearly said it, look above. actually read what you are responding to.

    I could care less about Adams and Jenkins, both are more than available.


    How do you constantly skim posts and then make the same argument that was already stated?

    Here is the post since you never saw it

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Adams and Jenkins are more than available, and I realize to get someone like Andrus we would have to give up someone else of value, but I don't want him that badly, and I like Lynn too much.



    That platoon is highly mediocre, existing isn't some special gift they offer to baseball. Andrus is better and if the Cardinals FO chose to pursue him it would make perfect sense. He fits right in with the group of young players coming up as well and would form an excellent new core with Miller, Tavares, Rosenthal, Jay, Freese, and possibly Wong.
    You realize that Andrus is gone in two seasons, right?

    He won't be around in 2015 unless he is happy making 60% of his free market value.

    Where as we will actually need Lynn in 2014 and beyond.....seeing how he is a member of that core, and we have 3 veteran starters likely gone by then (or up to that many).

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeDirt05 View Post
    We ain't ever gona see Adams he is blocked by Craig and Craig is blocked by freese, Matt and soon to be Oscar from moving to another position. We card fans have been *****ing for years that we wanted a good/great SS so does every other team in the league not to often does a good one become available and I think we need to swoop in and get him sure we only have 2 years guaranteed with him but we will have money to offer him with carp and Westbrook leaving soon. I just think Lynn is worth getting a stud SS one that stays healthy and looks like a younger better hitter of furcal. But I know how much you like Lynn so I know you want to hold on to him.
    I'm happy to trade Adams, I'm happy to trade Jenkins, and for a shortstop.

    But Andrus isn't enough of an upgrade, and I highly doubt the Cardinals would retain him in 2015.

    He is likely going to get a 5-6 year, 60-80 million dollar deal. For a guy who is yet to produce a league average offensive season whose value comes from his defense, I don't like that extension.


    I would move Lynn if it was for someone really special, a bigger upgrade at short, or someone with more years of control, similar to that of Lynn himself. We have Lynn through 2017, that's a long time for a guy that has already proven (at least to me) that he is capable middle rotation starter. He'll turn 26 next year, we have him under cost controlled protection from the age of 26 through his age 30 season. And he probably won't top 20 million in earnings in that time frame.

    I agree we need a shortstop, and while I love Garcia, he has yet to prove that he is capable of handling the job full time ever, much less soon. But I think what we can get for Adams and Jenkins alone could net us enough value to get through the next two seasons and we could see similar production to that of Andrus.

    If you are talking about Ian Desmond, Ben Zobrist, Starlin Castro, Asdrubal Cabrera? Hell yes I would do that deal. But likely, none of those teams would do that deal.

    I personally would offer Adams, Jenkins and maybe another guy for the M's Franklin, and let him compete with Furcal for the job this season.

  6. #216
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    So in order to justify this negative move, we have to make another move to replace Lynn?
    Lol negative move...Always willing to insist how right you are...You realize you are still going I have to find a SS because that duo sucks and can't possibly be in any 2014 plans, right? You'll just go out back and pick from a starting SS tree where it's free and controlled for all eternities? Starting SSs are jus so darn common! I mean, there's 30 of them, at least, for Pete's sake!
    Last edited by SenorGato; 11-06-2012 at 10:47 AM.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeDirt05 View Post
    I have to agree with the bolded statement a person could argue that Kozma cost us a shot at the World Series because the innings the giants went of were because of easy plays that he made an error on a play Andrus makes it 10/10 times and we win one of those last 3 and the series
    Kozma also won us Game of the NLDS and carried us mostly in Sept.


    But I do agree that he isn't a good ball player. And his production is far from sustainable.


    We need to improve at short, absolutely. Andrus just isn't enough of an upgrade to warrant getting rid of three assets (He is clearly an upgrade over what we have), which includes Lance Lynn.


    To paint it another way

    Andrus is a likely 4 WAR shortstop moving forward.

    So two seasons of 4 WAR
    2013 - 4 WAR
    2014 - 4 WAR
    Owed about 10 million all together

    Lance Lynn is a 3.5 WAR pitcher as it stands today
    Let's assume he doesn't progress over what he did last season

    2013 - 3.5 WAR
    2014 - 3.5 WAR
    2015 - 3.5 WAR
    2016 - 3.5 WAR
    2017 - 3.5 WAR

    If he does this, he would make an average of about 18 million through arb

    17.5 WAR for 18 million vs 8 WAR for about 10 million

    Now granted, it's different positions. But we still have Furcal for this season, what is Furcal's likely WAR?

    He is up to 1 WAR per 50 games played. So who knows how productive he will actually be

    Now what about Adams and Jenkins?

    Both were top 100 prospects last season. you have to assume one of them will at least reach the big leagues (especially Adams since he is clearly ready). What kind of values will they produce one day?

    What do we do if Craig gets hurt? Who is going to play first base? He was hurt as recently as last April (knee) and battled oblique as well.


    Andrus is an upgrade, but not nearly enough to unload Lynn plus two prospects.

    I am happy to trade Jenkins and Adams, but I want someone with more cost control years, or is a larger upgrade over what we already have, since Andrus is only worth about 20 more runs than what our shortstop position produces every single season.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 11-06-2012 at 10:51 AM.

  8. #218
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    Andrus just isn't enough of an upgrade to warrant getting rid of three assets (He is clearly an upgrade over what we have), which includes Lance Lynn.
    I wonder if there's anyone besides you who actually believes this, even slightly. I like how you deflect the whole "he's better, clearly" thing by just admitting it as if it's some small tidbit with no relevance to the conversation.

    So which other young, better SS do you plan to make your move on? Which young stud SS is Lynn bringing back with Matt Addams and Tyrell Jenkins?

    You realize that your whole starting middle infield as a whole barely combined (if that) for 4 WAR, either one?

    This is just irrational and naive, but I think I have come to expect that at this point.
    Last edited by SenorGato; 11-06-2012 at 10:55 AM.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    Lol negative move...Always willing to insist how right you are...You realize you are still going I have to find a SS because that duo sucks and can't possibly be in any 2014 plans, right? You'll just go out back and pick from a starting SS tree where it's free and controlled for all eternities? Starting SSs are jus so darn common! I mean, there's 30 of them, at least, for Pete's sake!
    Greg Garcia is our 2014 shortstop (pending no regression).


    And way to laugh at me for insistence in being correct and consistently ignoring 95% of my posts. You don't even quote the entire post. You take one sentence, laugh at it, and ignore the rest.

    This is why you can't be debated with. Because you don't actually discuss the argument.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    I wonder if there's anyone besides you who actually believes this, even slightly. I like how you deflect the whole "he's better, clearly" thing by just admitting it as if it's some small tidbit with no relevance to the conversation.

    So which other young, better SS do you plan to make your move on? Which young stud SS is Lynn bringing back with Matt Addams and Tyrell Jenkins?

    You realize that your whole starting middle infield as a whole barely combined (if that) for 4 WAR, either one?

    This is just irrational and naive, but I think I have come to expect that at this point.
    Jesus tapping dance Christ


    Would you read the entire ****ing post and stop with your condescending posting?

    I literally said it right below the statement you quoted

    If you are talking about Ian Desmond, Ben Zobrist, Starlin Castro, Asdrubal Cabrera? Hell yes I would do that deal. But likely, none of those teams would do that deal.

    This move doesn't make any sense for the Cardinals, because Lance Lynn has too much potential value to us.

    I would trade the other two for any low level shortstop to get us through 2013. It doesn't have to be anyone special. Just good enough to help protect in the event that Furcal isn't healthy in 2013.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Kozma also won us Game of the NLDS and carried us mostly in Sept.


    But I do agree that he isn't a good ball player. And his production is far from sustainable.


    We need to improve at short, absolutely. Andrus just isn't enough of an upgrade to warrant getting rid of three assets (He is clearly an upgrade over what we have), which includes Lance Lynn.


    To paint it another way

    Andrus is a likely 4 WAR shortstop moving forward.

    So two seasons of 4 WAR
    2013 - 4 WAR
    2014 - 4 WAR
    Owed about 10 million all together

    Lance Lynn is a 3.5 WAR pitcher as it stands today
    Let's assume he doesn't progress over what he did last season

    2013 - 3.5 WAR
    2014 - 3.5 WAR
    2015 - 3.5 WAR
    2016 - 3.5 WAR
    2017 - 3.5 WAR

    If he does this, he would make an average of about 18 million through arb

    17.5 WAR for 18 million vs 8 WAR for about 10 million

    Now granted, it's different positions. But we still have Furcal for this season, what is Furcal's likely WAR?

    He is up to 1 WAR per 50 games played. So who knows how productive he will actually be

    Now what about Adams and Jenkins?

    Both were top 100 prospects last season. you have to assume one of them will at least reach the big leagues (especially Adams since he is clearly ready). What kind of values will they produce one day?

    What do we do if Craig gets hurt? Who is going to play first base? He was hurt as recently as last April (knee) and battled oblique as well.


    Andrus is an upgrade, but not nearly enough to unload Lynn plus two prospects.

    I am happy to trade Jenkins and Adams, but I want someone with more cost control years, or is a larger upgrade over what we already have, since Andrus is only worth about 20 more runs than what our shortstop position produces every single season.
    he also lost game one with his error he doesnt make that we win in 3 games

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  12. #222
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    but idk jeffy i just like elvis a lot like you like lynn

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  13. #223
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    Wow, THE Greg Garcia? **** it, I'm wrong. Not only do you get to keep Matt Addams and Tyrell Jenkins, vital cogs to any team's future, but you get to start Greg Garcia in 2014? Now that's a machine. You guys are as unstoppable as Eli Manning.

    Oh how I would love for the Cardinals to listen to your plan. You'll be out of the picture by 2014 and that just makes life easier for the rest of the Central. Nothing better than a complacent rival franchise living off it's laurels.

    And way to laugh at me for insistence in being correct and consistently ignoring 95% of my posts. You don't even quote the entire post. You take one sentence, laugh at it, and ignore the rest.

    This is why you can't be debated with. Because you don't actually discuss the argument.
    As usual, a succinct whine about how mean I am to you because I refuse to bow before your insisted correctness. Everything I've said deals with the argument, everything I've said covers everything you've said, and all you can do is cry about it...but I'm the one that's impossible to have a proper debate with. It's the saaaame thing over and over with you, you poor victim you.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeDirt05 View Post
    but idk jeffy i just like elvis a lot like you like lynn
    Yeah, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. And Andrus makes sense to move for Texas with Profar ready.

    It was a fair trade to offer, and reasonable. I just don't want Andrus enough to warrant getting rid of Lynn AND two of our higher ranked prospects. That's all. I assume most Cardinals fans would approve the trade that your offered, and maybe even some Rangers fans.

    I think it was a fair proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeDirt05 View Post
    he also lost game one with his error he doesnt make that we win in 3 games
    This is true, that was killer.

    He is def not a starting full time shortstop in the big leagues.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Yeah, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. And Andrus makes sense to move for Texas with Profar ready.

    It was a fair trade to offer, and reasonable. I just don't want Andrus enough to warrant getting rid of Lynn AND two of our higher ranked prospects. That's all. I assume most Cardinals fans would approve the trade that your offered, and maybe even some Rangers fans.

    I think it was a fair proposal.



    This is true, that was killer.

    He is def not a starting full time shortstop in the big leagues.
    ya i only put jenkins because i couldnt think of another pitcher to put instead

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