Lovie and McCarthy are both fairly poor coaches. Look to them for examples of what talented rosters can do.
If you think he's fringe top 10. I could be there with you. I think he's slightly higher though.
But he greatly benefits from what Ted Thompson gives him. But when I try to give Thompson love, get him top 5 GM recognition, it's some other excuse. Rodgers or McCarthy or Capers. Funny how that works.
The defense underachieves, he's never developed any sort of running game, and the offensive line is a mess this year. Yes they had a good playoff run and yes they had a good regular season last year. Credit is due for that, but it doesn't absolve him of everything. I guess it's so quickly that people forget that before the playoffs in 2010 he was on the hot seat and considered one of the worst and most underachieving coaches in the NFL - the Norv Turner of the NFC North.
The defense isn't exactly underachieving. It's just not very good. It's playing in line with the roster right now. Was grade A in 2010.
OL issues are overrated but it's not great. That's a personnel issue on the run game and the line there. Newhouse being his LT isn't his fault. Benson going down. Green being his only option. Granted his run play calling is atrocious and he's never been good there and his refusal to play Starks is mind boggling.
You still dodged my question. Is he bottom 15? If not, he's not poor. You nailed his flaws pretty well but I think exaggerated them. I don't fight you too much on it other than your phrasing when you said poor.
Well let me see:
Belichick, Coughlin, Harbaugh x 2, Payton, Reid, Tomlin, Shanahan, Fox, Fisher, Whisenhunt, Smith (the Mike variety), Kubiak and Schwartz are all easily better in my mind and that's 14.
After that, I like Philbin, Pagano, and Frazier about as much as I like McCarthy. I'm still waiting on Philbin but I think he'll be a good head coach - same with Munchak. I also think Jason Garrett is on par with McCarthy, maybe better. Marvin Lewis and Lovie Smith are on this same rung as well.
So no, he's not one of the 15 I would take in this league. Is he top 15 right now for me though? Maybe, but only just since I would easily take all 14 of those guys over him.
I've been super impressed with Philbin and I thought he would be a dud.
Feelings on Schiano so far?
Without exception, the final arbiter of coaching ineptitude, acceptable performance, competence or greatness, it is measured with win/loss, division titles, play-off wins, conference titles and SB wins. Arguments can be made about the positive or negative effect of a front office, good or bad personnel decisions in both the draft and FA and injuries but none of that matters in the shadow of a winning record.
When evaluating Mike McCarthy behind so many coaches that have virtually no resume to speak of in the face of a significant W/L record and a SB win is beyond silly even if he is fortunate enough to have Aaron Rodgers as a QB.
Whisenhunt is a .500 coach with 2 division titles and a conference championship
Kubiak, another .500 coach with 2 division titles and no conference championships
Fox, another .500 coach but he has a whopping 5 division championships and a conference championship in 11 years.
Smith has a 50-21 W/L for .704 and 2 division titles in 5 years…nice…but, no play-off wins.
Fisher W/L, 142-120 for .537 with 4 division championships and 1 conference championship in 17 years. If anything he is the poster child for hanging around with a mediocre level of performance. He wins slightly more than half his games and assuming his fair share of division championships is 1 every 4 years, he even comes up short in that department. And, 5 play-off wins in 17 years.
Mike Smith should be given an incomplete or "To Be Determined" grade when you consider what his now-deposed OCs and DC from all those playoff losses are doing at their new jobs:
- Mike Mularkey/Bob Bratkowski - Jacksonville Head Coach/OC, the Jags currently have the 32nd ranked NFL offense and are on pace to score fewer points than they did in 2011 when they were ranked 28th.
- Brian Van Gorder - Auburn's DC, the Tigers currently have the 97th ranked defense in college football.
Last edited by Bravo95; 10-31-2012 at 03:44 AM.
In no order:
30 Team Stadium Checklist: 10 to go
1) Yankees 2) Orioles 3) Rays 4) Red Sox 5) Mets 6) Braves 7) Phillies 8) Nationals 9) Marlins 10) Pirates 11) Padres 12) Astros 13) Mariners 14) Twins 15) Cubs 16) White Sox 17) Cardinals 18) Indians 19) Tigers 20) Royals
I honestly don't see how an intelligent party can say that anyone other than those 5 aren't it. They have the best resumes... Seriously the same people including SF Harbaugh would have included Rex Ryan 2 seasons ago. Let's see how SF Harbaugh plays out over the course of more than 1.5 seasons.
1. Belichick: Will go down as one of the GOAT coaches. 'nough said.
2. Coughlin: Probably the most underrated coach ever. Seems like he's always on the hot seat according to the media, but the team knows otherwise. Great coach.
3. Payton: Look at the Saints this year. Ya that defense is terrible, but Payton is a smart coach. I hate the guy because I hate the Saints, but in the words of the great Wes Mantooth: I pure straight hate you, but god damnit I respect you.
4. Mike Tomlin: I was a huge fan of his when he was our defensive coordinator for the Vikings. Was really angry we let him walk and kept Childress. On the coaching side I'd say he's above average, but as a team leader there isn't much better out there. He had huge shoes to fill and he has faced a lot of adversity with his players off the field problems and he has handled it perfectly. Add in no losing seasons; #4.
5. Harbaugh (49ers): He has a loud mouth, and he doesn't know when to shut up sometimes; but in his 1.5 year stunt he has shocked me with how good of a coach his is. Say what you want about how talented the 49ers are, it takes good coaching to put it all together. I think he's overrated and underrated at the same time, and really there are a few other names I can put at #5 but I feel most comfortable with him.
Ready for 2015
Harbaugh would put a dominant running game around Rodgers and control the TOP.