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  1. #16
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    As of now i wouldnt say a guy who scored around 18 a game last season is worth a max contract. However; houston may be basing this offer on potential





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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiksilver2491 View Post
    This is silly, of course he's a max player. He's a top 3 SG who plays both sides of the floor and is only 23, injury aside where do you go wrong with having a player like Harden locked up long term?
    He is not a good defender. Wade did better against Harden than against any other guard during the play-offs. Harden is also a turn-over machine.

  3. #18
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    Is he worth it? No, but then again, he will get it. I don't think many players are worth a max deal. We just haven't seen him as a #1 yet, and while I think he will be fine, I also don't think he is a franchise player right now. Ideally, Houston would love to get a year long look at him first, and then decide. But that isn't happening.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  4. #19
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    Agree with Hawkeye, How many players are really worth a max contract? Maybe 10 tops. Just because you are top 5 at your position does not mean you necessarily deserve the big bucks. Teams will have to use more discretion when the cap rules are tightened because contracts may still be handed out, but teams will be burned in the long run if the player is not worth it.





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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnewguy View Post
    By saying Harden will be the best SG iin two years, you are simply saying he's a franchise player...now tell me the potential you see in him that'll make him a franchise player? He will never be as good as Wade or Kobe.
    #1. You are already dodging my argument by not being able to point out which shooting guards are superior.
    #2. He doesn't have to be as good as Kobe (one of the 10 greatest players of all-time) to be a franchise player.
    #3. I'll tell you exactly what I see in James Harden:

    He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_season.html

    Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg on 66% TS%. Look at some of these numbers from synergy:

    7th in Isolation Offense
    9th in PnR Ball Handler
    28th in Spot-Up
    1st in Off Screen
    1st in Hand-Off
    3rd in Cutting
    87th in Transition

    He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. He is 23 years old and has improved every season he has played in the league is fair. To expect regression is fair but to assume his game would fall apart is unreasonable. He spent much of last season carrying the Thunder's bench unit. I find it hard to imagine he'd have more trouble working with the Rockets starting 5.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    #1. You are already dodging my argument by not being able to point out which shooting guards are superior.
    #2. He doesn't have to be as good as Kobe (one of the 10 greatest players of all-time) to be a franchise player.
    #3. I'll tell you exactly what I see in James Harden:

    He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_season.html

    Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg on 66% TS%. Look at some of these numbers from synergy:

    7th in Isolation Offense
    9th in PnR Ball Handler
    28th in Spot-Up
    1st in Off Screen
    1st in Hand-Off
    3rd in Cutting
    87th in Transition

    He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. He is 23 years old and has improved every season he has played in the league is fair. To expect regression is fair but to assume his game would fall apart is unreasonable. He spent much of last season carrying the Thunder's bench unit. I find it hard to imagine he'd have more trouble working with the Rockets starting 5.
    How big of a fall off do you expect with his usage and minutes driving up this year, along with defensive gameplans now shifting to him as the #1?

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by baller101200 View Post
    Oh, okay.
    He wasn't who the **** includes incentives when talking about a base contract.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    #1. You are already dodging my argument by not being able to point out which shooting guards are superior.
    #2. He doesn't have to be as good as Kobe (one of the 10 greatest players of all-time) to be a franchise player.
    #3. I'll tell you exactly what I see in James Harden:

    He was HISTORICALLY effecient. It was the 23rd most effecient scoring season in NBA HISTORY. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_season.html

    Look at few guys that are ahead of him. They are all either big men, sharpshooters, guys that barely averaged double digits, or a combination of them. He's a shooting guard who averaged 17ppg on 66% TS%. Look at some of these numbers from synergy:

    7th in Isolation Offense
    9th in PnR Ball Handler
    28th in Spot-Up
    1st in Off Screen
    1st in Hand-Off
    3rd in Cutting
    87th in Transition

    He was effecient in every method of scoring that could be tracked. He is 23 years old and has improved every season he has played in the league is fair. To expect regression is fair but to assume his game would fall apart is unreasonable. He spent much of last season carrying the Thunder's bench unit. I find it hard to imagine he'd have more trouble working with the Rockets starting 5.
    The mistake you are making is that you are ignoring the impact a great player like Durant has on Harden's offensive exploits. No one doubles harden, he is often open and he benefits from Westbrook and Durants presence. Kevin Martin will look better with OKC than with Houston. I have watched games where Harden struggles when neither Westbrook or Durant is on the floor. The pre-season game he played without those 2 was sad to watch...he was often doubled in that game and he ended up 2-16fg. He is just another Jeremy Lin IMO.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    How big of a fall off do you expect with his usage and minutes driving up this year, along with defensive gameplans now shifting to him as the #1?
    That's the thing. If Lin is healthy I don't see his usage being threw the roof. As someone who caught EVERY game of Linsanity, I can tell you first hand that kid doesn't mind dribbling the ball around for 35 minutes a game.

    I honestly see Harden landing at 20+ppg and a TS% around 58% which would still put him ahead of the majority of Kobe seasons. Let's forget that Harden has a strong 3pt shot and gets to the foul line. Those factors are huge for effeciency. He's also a good passer which forces teams to be honest with their double teams.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnewguy View Post
    I understand the system is broken but realistically, is Harden worth that much? Well, I think one or two players in the league are actually worth max contract (Durant and Lebron)
    Sorry, but that argument holds no water.

    If 95% of the teams will pay him max, then the argument is settled.

    In an imaginary world, teacher's get paid more than basketball players and actors.

    In the real world, teachers fight to fill their gas tanks while athletes and actors ride around on G6's.

    Is he worth $15M? $15M says that he is. And that's all that counts when you're trying to secure a player.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashcuff View Post
    He wasn't who the **** includes incentives when talking about a base contract.
    Well I saw it on one website that he could make upwards of 20million a year with incentives. If we are only talking base then he won't even be making up to 15 million because his max contract will be 58 million and not 60.

    EDIT: Ohh ok, you got me there. the website said Harden "couldn't pass on the opportunity to earn another $15-20 million"...it didn't say 20 million a year. lol
    Last edited by dnewguy; 10-29-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnewguy View Post
    The mistake you are making is that you are ignoring the impact a great player like Durant has on Harden's offensive exploits. No one doubles harden, he is often open and he benefits from Westbrook and Durants presence. Kevin Martin will look better with OKC than with Houston. I have watched games where Harden struggles when neither Westbrook or Durant is on the floor. The pre-season game he played without those 2 was sad to watch...he was often doubled in that game and he ended up 2-16fg. He is just another Jeremy Lin IMO.
    My facts > Your subjective opinion and grossly small sample size.

    But maybe... just maybe if I had seen that one preseason game it would have totally changed my mind about the 80 game stretch of amazing he put together last season before the finals.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    That's the thing. If Lin is healthy I don't see his usage being threw the roof. As someone who caught EVERY game of Linsanity, I can tell you first hand that kid doesn't mind dribbling the ball around for 35 minutes a game.

    I honestly see Harden landing at 20+ppg and a TS% around 58% which would still put him ahead of the majority of Kobe seasons. Let's forget that Harden has a strong 3pt shot and gets to the foul line. Those factors are huge for effeciency. He's also a good passer which forces teams to be honest with their double teams.
    I see a problem coming with his patience with the ball. In OKC, where the floor had to be spread because of Durant and Westy, Harden really took his time. With defenses honed in on him now, unless Houston gets some shooters and floor spacers, he won't get that freedom.

    But, your numbers are about exactly where I pegged him in the expected stats thread, which means he will still be hovering in the elite scorer category for sure. I just have to see him as a #1 before I can buy into max player type deal. Not that I don't expect him to be just fine, just need to see it.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    Is he worth it? No, but then again, he will get it. I don't think many players are worth a max deal. We just haven't seen him as a #1 yet, and while I think he will be fine, I also don't think he is a franchise player right now. Ideally, Houston would love to get a year long look at him first, and then decide. But that isn't happening.
    Pretty much this.

    We'll see what he does as the guy now in Houston. If people are going to say he is a franchise player we're about to see how far he can carry this team as the leader.

    Being talented doesn't always mean you're a franchise player or deserve a max contract.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    That's the thing. If Lin is healthy I don't see his usage being threw the roof. As someone who caught EVERY game of Linsanity, I can tell you first hand that kid doesn't mind dribbling the ball around for 35 minutes a game.

    I honestly see Harden landing at 20+ppg and a TS% around 58% which would still put him ahead of the majority of Kobe seasons. Let's forget that Harden has a strong 3pt shot and gets to the foul line. Those factors are huge for effeciency. He's also a good passer which forces teams to be honest with their double teams.
    PLEASE...you guys were all about Lin when he was with the Knicks.

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