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  1. #106
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    The sites I posted earlier that guessed at the contract amounts the top free agents would receive this offseason had Mike Napoli pegged at 1 year, 9million, 2 years, 16 million and 3 years, 36 million.

    The last one would make no sense for the Pirates but a 1-2 year deal with an AAV of 8-10 million would make a lot of sense.

    Napoli could catch about 60 games and play 1B for the rest of the time. Him and McKenry would be the only two catchers needed on the 25 man roster.

    C: McKenry
    C/1B: Napoli
    1B/OF: Jones
    1B/3B: Sanchez
    2B: Walker
    3B: Alvarez
    SS: Barmes
    IF: Mercer
    IF: Harrison
    LF: Marte
    CF: McCutchen
    OF: Snider
    OF: Tabata (or Presley for those who prefer him)

    Preferably one of Mercer or Harrison would be upgraded but for now lets just stick with those two. Napoli would only be counted on to start lets say 120 games (60 at catcher and 60 at 1B). He has played 113 and 108 the last two season so that seems reasonable. So lets look at the possible lineups on days he plays C, 1B and days he is off.

    Walker, 2B
    Marte, LF
    McCutchen, CF
    Alvarez, 3B
    Jones, 1B
    Napoli, C
    Snider, RF
    Barmes, SS

    Walker, 2B
    Marte, LF
    McCutchen, CF
    Alvarez, 3B
    Jones, RF
    Napoli, 1B
    McKenry, C
    Barmes, SS

    Walker, 2B
    Marte, LF
    McCutchen, CF
    Alvarez, 3B
    Jones, 1B
    McKenry, C
    Snider, RF
    Barmes, SS

    You can sprinkle Tabata and Sanchez in there when facing left handed pitchers and adjust accordingly. All of this would make for a very flexible lineup.
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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by burgh_fan66 View Post
    For the record that is not just my suggestions. I seen some reporter although I can't find it now say the Diamondbacks are looking for two of a major league ready 3B, SS and a young starting pitcher. He mentions those two guys as players the Pirates could move but says they are unlikely to do so. I seen another reporter suggest James McDonald as the pitcher but he too mentions Alvarez.

    So by all accounts the price for Upton would be Alvarez plus a pitcher (McDonald or Taillon most likely)
    I would be more willing if it was McDonald instead of Taillon but still, I would have a tough time parting with Alvarez. Obviously you have to give to get but with Upton's well-documented struggles on the road and Alvarez looking like he might be turning the corner, I still don't think I'd do it.

    Add to the fact that we are heavier in the OF then 3B and it makes me less willing to make the trade

  3. #108
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    I know this isn't Pirate related but I just got back from the Who concert and wanted to tell everyone (because you all care about my musical preferences) that it was awesome! Obviously I'm a little biased because they are my favorite band but for being as old as they are, they still rocked it.

    End rant/Who promotion

  4. #109
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    just a thought- melky cabrera? its rumored that cleveland is a good fit for him because of the low pressure, but wouldn't the pressure be just as low here? hes way more of a proven commodity than snider, tabata, or marte and it gives us a position to deal from.

    another thought- i know people are happy to keep the corner outfield spots, but i think that this would lead to a problem that is beginning to crop up- the problem of having a glut of average players who have shown flashes of great, flashes of average, and flashes of terrible. snider, tabata, marte, mcpherson, locke, harrison, and probably more all fit this bill. i just believe waiting for somebody to get it and play up to potential is something i dont want to see anymore from the pirates

  5. #110
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    First Tomahawk I must admit you confused me there for a second with the avatar. I was like who is this guy and then I finally read your name.

    As for shamanman I see where you going with that. However Locke, McPherson and Harrison shouldn't really be in the discussion. Its perfectly fine to have your 5th starter and last man on the bench be average players. The 5th starters throughout the league are honestly quite bad and why I think the Pirates should seek an upgrade over Harrison the quality of the 5th men on benches isn't exactly stellar.

    Now you probably have a point there with Tabata, Snider and Marte. Keeping 3 uproven players for the two corner spots could be problematic. Any of the three could easily turn into an above average player but then again any of three could struggle to be mediocre. However with the situation the Pirates are in it is necessary to at some point take chances on unproven players and let them see what they can do. When that time arises the best the Pirates can really hope for is to have some sort of contigency plan. With Jones and Sanchez's history of being solid ball players and the fact they have 4 options for the corner outfield spots (including Presley) the Pirates seem to have some contigency plans in place should lets say Marte be deemed to need more time in AAA.

    The Pirates are never going to be able to send out a set 8 in the field; very few teams actually have the ability, resources and personel to do so. There is always going to be those few positions that have uncertainity surrounding them. They are going to have to rely on average players or unproven players.

    I get your overall point but it is something the Pirates can not do. The Pirates can't afford to say lets forget about waiting on Cole to settle in and make an impact and go sign two top of the rotation starters. They can't say lets move on from Marte after a half a major league season of ups and downs. Right now the Pirates probably have question marks surrounding 24 of the 25 spots on the roster (with McCutchen being the only steady one). Some of the other spots come with few question marks but even if you put aside age issues (Burnett and Rodriguez), injury issues (Walker, Karstens) and inconsistent performance issues (Alvarez and McDonald) you are left with way more question marks than can possibly be filled externally in one offseason.

    So to answer your question yes Cabrera could make some sense but to get to a point where the Pirates won't need to wait on potential they would probably need to sign Zach Grienke, Anibal Sanchez, Russell Martin, Kevin Youkills, Stephen Drew, Melky Cabrera, Tori Hunter, Rafeal Soriano and Jeremy Affeldt. And that just can't be done.
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  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by burgh_fan66 View Post
    First Tomahawk I must admit you confused me there for a second with the avatar. I was like who is this guy and then I finally read your name.

    As for shamanman I see where you going with that. However Locke, McPherson and Harrison shouldn't really be in the discussion. Its perfectly fine to have your 5th starter and last man on the bench be average players. The 5th starters throughout the league are honestly quite bad and why I think the Pirates should seek an upgrade over Harrison the quality of the 5th men on benches isn't exactly stellar.

    Now you probably have a point there with Tabata, Snider and Marte. Keeping 3 uproven players for the two corner spots could be problematic. Any of the three could easily turn into an above average player but then again any of three could struggle to be mediocre. However with the situation the Pirates are in it is necessary to at some point take chances on unproven players and let them see what they can do. When that time arises the best the Pirates can really hope for is to have some sort of contigency plan. With Jones and Sanchez's history of being solid ball players and the fact they have 4 options for the corner outfield spots (including Presley) the Pirates seem to have some contigency plans in place should lets say Marte be deemed to need more time in AAA.

    The Pirates are never going to be able to send out a set 8 in the field; very few teams actually have the ability, resources and personel to do so. There is always going to be those few positions that have uncertainity surrounding them. They are going to have to rely on average players or unproven players.

    I get your overall point but it is something the Pirates can not do. The Pirates can't afford to say lets forget about waiting on Cole to settle in and make an impact and go sign two top of the rotation starters. They can't say lets move on from Marte after a half a major league season of ups and downs. Right now the Pirates probably have question marks surrounding 24 of the 25 spots on the roster (with McCutchen being the only steady one). Some of the other spots come with few question marks but even if you put aside age issues (Burnett and Rodriguez), injury issues (Walker, Karstens) and inconsistent performance issues (Alvarez and McDonald) you are left with way more question marks than can possibly be filled externally in one offseason.

    So to answer your question yes Cabrera could make some sense but to get to a point where the Pirates won't need to wait on potential they would probably need to sign Zach Grienke, Anibal Sanchez, Russell Martin, Kevin Youkills, Stephen Drew, Melky Cabrera, Tori Hunter, Rafeal Soriano and Jeremy Affeldt. And that just can't be done.
    Ha, it is always confusing when someone changes their avatar. Like you said, unless you look at the name, you think they're someone new.

    Well said regarding the OF spots though. I'll also add (though this isn't usually the case), that signing "proven" players has failed for us as well. Barajas, Barmes for the beginning of the season, Overbay, Iwamora, etc. Everyone is prone to a bad season here and there

  7. #112
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    I would like to add that I think people are selling Gaby Sanchez a little short. He struggled last year no doubt but in 2010 and 2011 he was a decent 1B. Of the 23 1B who received at least 1000 PA over that time Sanchez had the 10th highest WAR. He was ahead of the likes of Billy Butler and Carlos Pena. Derek Lee (15th), Garrett Jones (19th) and Lyle Overbay (20th) are the players on the list that occupied 1B for the Pirates at any time during that period. So he wasn't elite by any means but he was pretty consistent producer.

    Obviously we can't completely ignore last season but even so Sanchez produced significantly better with the Pirates than he did with the Marlins. He was essentially a league average hitter when with the Pirates. He is at least an acceptable fall back plan for the Pirates.
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTL View Post
    Can't believe the Pirates didn't dangle Hanrahan for Haren considering they almost took Marmol
    the cubs passes because something in harons health dident pass the mustard

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by burgh_fan66 View Post
    The sites I posted earlier that guessed at the contract amounts the top free agents would receive this offseason had Mike Napoli pegged at 1 year, 9million, 2 years, 16 million and 3 years, 36 million.

    The last one would make no sense for the Pirates but a 1-2 year deal with an AAV of 8-10 million would make a lot of sense.

    Napoli could catch about 60 games and play 1B for the rest of the time. Him and McKenry would be the only two catchers needed on the 25 man roster.

    C: McKenry
    C/1B: Napoli
    1B/OF: Jones
    1B/3B: Sanchez
    2B: Walker
    3B: Alvarez
    SS: Barmes
    IF: Mercer
    IF: Harrison
    LF: Marte
    CF: McCutchen
    OF: Snider
    OF: Tabata (or Presley for those who prefer him)

    Preferably one of Mercer or Harrison would be upgraded but for now lets just stick with those two. Napoli would only be counted on to start lets say 120 games (60 at catcher and 60 at 1B). He has played 113 and 108 the last two season so that seems reasonable. So lets look at the possible lineups on days he plays C, 1B and days he is off.

    Walker, 2B
    Marte, LF
    McCutchen, CF
    Alvarez, 3B
    Jones, 1B
    Napoli, C
    Snider, RF
    Barmes, SS

    Walker, 2B
    Marte, LF
    McCutchen, CF
    Alvarez, 3B
    Jones, RF
    Napoli, 1B
    McKenry, C
    Barmes, SS

    Walker, 2B
    Marte, LF
    McCutchen, CF
    Alvarez, 3B
    Jones, 1B
    McKenry, C
    Snider, RF
    Barmes, SS

    You can sprinkle Tabata and Sanchez in there when facing left handed pitchers and adjust accordingly. All of this would make for a very flexible lineup.
    it wouldent botherr me at all if they traded tabata,sanchezand mc donald

  10. #115
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    id hope the pirates go after jason bay and sean burnett to improve the team . id think a one year deal with lots of incentives might entice bay

  11. #116
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    let me have a mulligan? im new here....

    .... when i said pop what i meant to say was rbi guys. this team does have guys who have the power to hit it out of the park and then some 20-30 times all through their lineup. however the lack of any consistant rbi threat outside of walker, mccuth, and alvarez prevent an ideal lineup with this roster from having rbi guys outside of the 2-3-4 spots. i dont think jones counts for the same reason we shouldnt touch eithier- if youre honest with yourself he a platoon bat. as the giants showed this year in the series it may not be the power bats that get you (sandoval cant hit 3hr every game) its having hitters in the lineup who can get the job done consistantly.

    maybe im undervaluing OBP here but i like looking at pretty line drives to the gaps more than walks and infield singles

  12. #117
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    I'm not quite sure what you mean rbi guys. RBI are a product of the team performance. The best way for the Pirates to get more is to put more people on base so there are more oppurtunities for them to be knocked in.
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  13. #118
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    Thoughts on Pierzynski? He'd be a good short term option to platoon with McKenry. He'll cost more than Barajas but he'll likely produce a lot more than him as well.

    Would you trust a blind scout? Of course you wouldn't but that's what you do when you simply go by stats
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  14. #119
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    Looks like we missed out on your leadoff hitter Burgh and an upgrade at SS. I know he has a huge contract but Reyes would have been nice

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTL View Post
    Thoughts on Pierzynski? He'd be a good short term option to platoon with McKenry. He'll cost more than Barajas but he'll likely produce a lot more than him as well.
    I'm not really sure what to think about him. His performance this past season seems to be an outlier for his career and he is getting up there in age so its not like he has turned a corner. He could have some value but to be perfectly honest I'm not quite sure how much better he would be then say a Kelly Shoppach or Gerald Laird. I mean he is likely to be slightly better but I don't think significantly so and I think he is going to get a contract worth possibly 5 times what the those two will get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk27 View Post
    Looks like we missed out on your leadoff hitter Burgh and an upgrade at SS. I know he has a huge contract but Reyes would have been nice
    That is one massive trade. It looks like the Marlins are sending half of their team away. Reyes would have been great and would have looked nice a top the order. Not really a contract the Pirates should be taking on though.
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