Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 78
  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    37,493
    vCash
    2100
    There is no need to be upset.

    Pierce is the best offensive player in Celtics history.

    Unrustle your jimmies, young padiwan.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,782
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    So far, we've got:

    Parish
    Bob Ryan
    Mike Gorman
    Tommy
    Ainge

    But, wait. We're supposed to take Bags' and Birdfan's argument over all those other guys??
    Oh, so it's an us vs them thing, hunh? I just thought it was a debate over who is better - not based on which posters you like or dislike - or who is your guy because you don't really know the other guy.

    Check post #20 - I've got at least twice as many players/coaches/journalists quoted there.

    In the prior post I just laid out a pile of offensive stats and Pierce lost all but one, and that one was close.

    During the McHale v Pierce debates it became clear that you didn't know McHale's game at all well. If you didn't know McHale, how would you know Bird?


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Eastern Mass
    Posts
    1,167
    vCash
    1500
    Ill take Scal over both
    The name is Amendola....

    ...Danny Amendola

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Oh, so it's an us vs them thing, hunh? I just thought it was a debate over who is better - not based on which posters you like or dislike - or who is your guy because you don't really know the other guy.

    Check post #20 - I've got at least twice as many players/coaches/journalists quoted there.

    In the prior post I just laid out a pile of offensive stats and Pierce lost all but one, and that one was close.

    During the McHale v Pierce debates it became clear that you didn't know McHale's game at all well. If you didn't know McHale, how would you know Bird?
    It goes beyond stats, which you can never get past. Gorman has seen every minute of every Bird game and Pierce game and he still picks Pierce with the game on the line. He watches games; you dissect them on paper. Two different viewpoints, and you know which one I side with there.


    "Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    3,776
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by BradytoMossTD View Post
    Ill take Scal over both
    Fred Roberts!
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,144
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    Wow, what Bird fanboy . I said he was the better player and you're still whining.

    You should make a sign for a Celtics home game this season, with the word "FOOLISH" on it, and arrows pointing to photos of Mike and Tommy. Sit right behind them and chant "fools" all game.

    After all, it isn't like Mike Gorman has seen more of both Bird and Pierce play than anyone on the planet. Nice try with your Ainge crap, but where's your argument on Gorman??

    http://www.telegram.com/article/2012...13/1009/sports


    Mike:


    Tommy:
    You embrace the past, you promote the present. He is getting paid to say how great PP is now.

    If I work for someone/ company/ management and I say the last boss/ owner/ manager was better........Are you following the point. I am just trying to enlighten you on how business works. The guy (Gorman), is getting paid.

    I may have business, if someone doesn't speak very highly of a partner, they don't last very long.....trust me my man, I know of what I speak. PP is a, " Celtics partner. " He has been the face of the company for over 10 years. You think Gorman.........isn't going to say the right things, really?

    You ask anyone.......in basketball circles....NOT ON CELTICS PAYROLL...

    Who the best offensive player is, not best PLAYER (which everyone knows is Mr. Bird)....Everyone says Bird, everyone. From Magic, Barkley, Lupica, Wooden, Ext.....

    I will chalk this up to, " living in the moment/ youth. " I tip my cap to 69centers, gentlemans handshake. I enjoy the conversation.

    Bagwell368, you are 100% correct on this one. Nice post's!

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,144
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Oh, so it's an us vs them thing, hunh? I just thought it was a debate over who is better - not based on which posters you like or dislike - or who is your guy because you don't really know the other guy.

    Check post #20 - I've got at least twice as many players/coaches/journalists quoted there.

    In the prior post I just laid out a pile of offensive stats and Pierce lost all but one, and that one was close.

    During the McHale v Pierce debates it became clear that you didn't know McHale's game at all well. If you didn't know McHale, how would you know Bird?
    Nailed it.....

    I wonder sometimes who picks the opposite side of Mr. Bagwell368. I am unsure if some just like to debate Bagwell, they really don't feel that way at all. I get that strong feeling........

    I like everyone here, I think Bagwell has some great posts. On this issue we happen to agree.

    Great post again!

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird Fan View Post
    Nailed it.....

    I wonder sometimes who picks the opposite side of Mr. Bagwell368. I am unsure if some just like to debate Bagwell, they really don't feel that way at all. I get that strong feeling........

    I like everyone here, I think Bagwell has some great posts. On this issue we happen to agree.

    Great post again!
    You haven't mentioned how the "FOOLISH" sign for Mike and Tommy is coming along. You argued Ainge's stance, but now you're just resting on Bags' post with no response for my comments about Mike and Tommy.

    Bags didn't have an answer either, only said he listed twice as many journalists. Bags, I absolutely guarantee that anyone and everyone you can name has seen LESS of Bird and Pierce than Mike Gorman has.
    Last edited by 69centers; 10-30-2012 at 11:20 AM.


    "Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    3,776
    vCash
    1500
    I have been assuming everyone believes Havlicek is the third person in this argument?
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,144
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    You haven't mentioned how the "FOOLISH" sign for Mike and Tommy is coming along. You argued Ainge's stance, but now you're just resting on Bags' post with no response for my comments about Mike and Tommy.

    Bags didn't have an answer either, only said he listed twice as many journalists. Bags, I absolutely guarantee that anyone and everyone you can name has seen LESS of Bird and Pierce than Mike Gorman has.
    I sure did. I was giving the understanding was implied. They are paid Celtic employees...........

    Again, they are paid Celtic employee's. The " Celtics Product " is Paul Pierce and has been.

    They are saying the right things.

    There are many informed people in basketball circles that would pick Bird, most everyone would.

    I feel you guys are just trying to debate Bagwell368 on this, and really don't think any smart minded, educated person feels P. Pierce is better than bird at anything basketball related.....offense included.



    Ok then, I say that Rajon rondo is a better shooter than Danny Ainge. Just a better pure shooter. That is incorrect....... But im sure I can find some nut that would agree.....why? Well because Rondo is relevent, he is playing in the NOW.

    We as people focus on the now, we are more forgetful of the past. It's called inherent human nature.

    Example- You are more likely to remember what you ate today than you did ten years ago. So to happens with everything in life.

    Just because I ate a really good/ great meal my wife made, doesn't mean it was better than 5 star steak in Manhatten. It's just not......The same is applicable with PP and Bird.

    Ok........My wifes is better.LOL That was close....lol

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,144
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Opalmerr View Post
    I have been assuming everyone believes Havlicek is the third person in this argument?
    No Jason Terry......He is playing today. I must only pick players in the past ten years, my new rule.LOL


    Joking, I would say Bird- Hondo- Mchale/ P. Pierce. Just as offensive player, not over all basketball player.

    Joe Klein is part of the conversation...LOL

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Western MA
    Posts
    592
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    There... there... it reminds of 20 years ago when younger folk were claiming "New Kids on the Block" were better then the Beatles. Read these quotes - assuming you actually have an open mind - took me all of 7 minutes to dig them up.

    Celtics president Red Auerbach, the winningest NBA coach in history with more than 1,000 victories before he retired to the front office, called Bird “the greatest player ever to play the game.”

    Coach George Karl of the Cleveland Cavaliers told ray Didinger of the Knight News Service: “Bird is so far ahead of everyone else, he’s in a different century. I’ve never seen anyone better. “Given the choice between Kareem (Jabbar) and Bird, I’d take Bird. He rebounds like a center, passes like a guard, shoots lights out from 20 feet. Besides all that, he’s a killer. Hell do anything to win.”

    "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy, now a Celtics broadcaster. "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest." Chimes in Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood. "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't." Even Laker general manager Jerry West, who refuses to compare players from different eras, says of Bird, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."

    Dr. J. calls him a basketball genius and he was. It was what made him so much fun to watch for me. James Worthy used to talk about how mentally exhausted he got covering Bird.

    Jones: "I think Paul Pierce is the best scorer in Celtics history." Walton: "Uh, have you ever heard of a player named LARRY BIRD?!"

    Minihane: "2. Larry Bird

    There is some momentum in Boston a regarding the idea that Pierce might be the best offensive player in Celtics history, it's been kicked around for a couple of years and gained steam when Pierce passed Bird on the scoring list earlier this year. It seems that this is the title that all have agreed will be bestowed on Pierce when he retires, and at first glance it's a fine fit.

    And I'm on board with the idea that Pierce can find the most ways to score in Celtics history - drive to the basket, post up and come off screens to hit a jumper with equal skill - but Larry Bird is the best offensive player in team history by a huge margin. Pierce's career high in field-goal percentage is .497, a number topped by Bird five times in his career (Bird's career FG percentage is .496) Bird's career free-throw percentage is higher than any season Pierce has ever had, and his career 3-point percentage is higher than Pierce's. Oh, and Bird is one of the two or three best passers who have ever lived. "

    Rob Nelson: "Look at these numbers. From 1983 through the 1988 season, Bird averaged 28 points a game. Pierce has never averaged 28 points a game in a single season. In only 897 games Larry scored 21,791 points. Pierce has played in more games (920) and still has a less points than Bird. This is even more amazing when you realize the fact Bird only played 13 seasons. The final four seasons were injury plagued and he scored under 4000 points. This means Bird scored 17,000 plus points in only 9 years. Pierce hit for 15,000 plus good for a little under 200 points of difference.

    The bottom line is Bird was the greatest scorer in Celtics history. The numbers clearly paint the picture that Bird is the man in the scoring department. He was a super nova that burned out too quickly. How many more points would he have scored had his body held up? Bird on offense was like watching an expert surgeon go to work. Bird had the mid range jump shot, he could score off picks or screens, he could drive the lane, he could score in transition, he had the long range bomb, and above all the desire to score from any place he wanted on the floor. The debate can keep people occupied. Pierce or Bird has no real losers, but for those that saw Bird in his prime know that Bird was the greatest scorer that they ever saw."

    ################################

    So, has any current player or Coach claim Pierce is the GOAT? (outside of Celtic employee's)

    How many 1st Team NBA teams has PP made? ZERO - Bird made NINE

    How many times did he average over 27 PPG? ZERO - Bird did it 3 times

    Did you want to get into assists and offensive rebounds as well? Because Bird roasts PP there as well.

    How ebout eFG% 3PT% FT% - no, no, no - Bird wins them all.

    So where does the proposition come that PP was a superior offensive force to Bird? From the crowd seemingly that thinks more career points that took about 100 games more to get?

    How about Bird's 3897 points in the playoffs compared to PP 2728? Unlikely to be broken by PP.

    Regular season + playoffs:

    LB: 3897+21791=25688 points in 1061 total games (24.2 PPG)

    PP: 2728+22591=25319 points in 1155 total games (21.9 PPG)

    Every generation has to have "it's guy". Too bad it had to be PP for this group, because PP offensively could touch Bird. PP needed KG, RA, Posey, House, Davis, and Thibodeau added to the Celts to get to the one title he's been connected to. By the end of this year he will have made ~$178M in salary - and he can't carry Bird's jock.
    THIS POST ENDS THE ARGUMENT! Bagsy is so 100% dead-on-balls-accurate it hurts me to admit it. I don't always side with him, but he wins this debate.

    I literally gave my son the middle name Pierce. I say this not to brag in any way or try to seem cool, but merely to prove my point. I love Paul Pierce. Larry was better. End of story.

    He backed up his point of view with a preponderance of evidence and you kids snidely eschew him to the side. Fact is fact. Opinion is opinion. And to be honest, the opinions of elite basketball minds that he provided for you outweigh Mike Gorman's. I like Mike, just don't agree with him here.

    It's like I've said before, you don't have to blast one player to praise another. At the club there is a VIP section. Then there is the guy who walks in and shuts down the whole club. P˛ is in the VIP. Larry shuts down the building.


    2013-2014 BOSTON CELTICS

    RONDO / PRESSEY
    BRADLEY / BAYLESS / JOHNSON
    GREEN / WALLACE / BOGANS
    BASS / HUMPHRIES / FAVERANI
    SULLINGER / OLYNYK / ANTHONY


  13. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    3,776
    vCash
    1500
    Polish Post,

    Nice post.

    It's still largely a matter of subjective opinion though.

    Fred Roberts!
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,782
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    It goes beyond stats, which you can never get past. Gorman has seen every minute of every Bird game and Pierce game and he still picks Pierce with the game on the line. He watches games; you dissect them on paper. Two different viewpoints, and you know which one I side with there.
    And I played at a higher level than Gorman, and I'm fairly sure I've coached more than he has too. Even more to the point I'm not paid by the Celts directly or indirectly - unlike Gorman. I'd say Walton, Red, Cousy, Karl, Nelson, West, Dr. J, and Worthy all know/knew a lot more about hoops and who can play than Gorman.

    Tommy is capable of great insight into the game, but when it comes to personalities and whom he favors, he's erratic, moody, and always waves the green flag. In his early years he was sardonic about Celt fouls in games, but somewhat fair. However since Johnny Most died he's turned into a Grade B version of Most. His objectivity is totally in question on many topics since then.

    Gorman OTOH is not as ridiculous on fouls as Tommy, although he's an obvious green flag waver. Gorman strikes me at best as having a middling mind for hoops. In games, or interviews (in depth or just quips) he certainly doesn't show that much outside of knowing Celtic history.

    Polish Post: thank you for the kind words
    Last edited by bagwell368; 10-31-2012 at 06:40 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,782
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Opalmerr View Post
    Polish Post,

    Nice post.

    It's still largely a matter of subjective opinion though.

    Fred Roberts!
    Objectively it isn't - in both traditional and advanced stats Bird tops Pierce in every single category but TS%.

    In terms of where the "average" non Celtic Coach/Player/Scribe would place those two vs each other, or all time is obvious.

    9 years 1st team All NBA vs 0 years 1st team All NBA

    Those votes come from all over, not just Waltham or Boston.

    Pierce was never seen as one of the best two Forwards in any year he played in, once he made 3-4 bracket, and 3 times 5-6 bracket. In 12 full seasons.

    Bird 9 times was 1-2 bracket, and once was in the 3-4 bracket. Not bad for 10 full seasons.

    They were both seen as two way players with balanced offense and defense. It's not PP couldn't play D, and he was penalized for it in being named as All NBA 1st team.

    If Pierce can't touch Bird in Championships, Awards, Offensive stats, and Encomiums in their own times, then how is Pierce a better offensive player than Bird? The answer is that he isn't. Not now, not when Pierce retires, and not ever.

    I hate to shiv Havlicek - but the order of long term Celts Forwards top 5 on overall offense is:

    Bird
    McHale
    Pierce
    Havlicek
    Maxwell
    Last edited by bagwell368; 10-31-2012 at 07:14 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •