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  1. #16
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    Apples and oranges, imo

    Even in a dream scenario were you could put them in identical games with the same teammates and people defending them, their skillsets are just different. And you can't compare them. Not to mention, Bird might get knocked around by these athletic supermen masquerading as basketball players, and Pierce would definitely be suspended on technicals in a weeks time if he threw elbows like Bird

    So, let's stop plz

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by xk4 View Post
    Apples and oranges, imo

    Even in a dream scenario were you could put them in identical games with the same teammates and people defending them, their skillsets are just different. And you can't compare them.
    Ahhhh, a sighting of intelligence!
    Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI • 14m •  More
    SI: Statistics suggest Joel Embiid will fully recover from foot surgery. But it could be 9-12 months before he plays http://bit.ly/1qwZuIB

  3. #18
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    I am sure of ONE thing in life.

    Larry Bird is the best offensive player in Celtics history, period. To say otherwise is down right foolish.

    I am not going over this topic again, as many here know my views. But I will say this, how soon we forget our past.

    It is very true with anything in life, distance/ time can erase feelings, perception, perspective.

    The other side is this, I would venture to say to some guys here never saw Larry Bird 1979- 1987. The years Bird was at his best. Others never will give credit to past (IE people sayin, " Lebron is better than Jordan. "OMG). They will always take current player.

    Then a very small amount, I repeat a very small amount never give Bird his due because he's white. I have heard this for years, nothing new.

    To say P. Pierce is a better Offensive player than Hondo/ Bird, that folks is......crazy talk! Bat @$!% crazy.......

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  4. #19
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    I see your Robert Parish- Bob Ryan, and raise you a Magic Johnson- Mike lupica.

    I'll take the ladder, also hasn't " good ol' Bob retired. " One of the worst writers, I have read a lot of his work, never been a fan. I look for points to agree or an angle but it's hard to find.

    I know that's personal opinion, but I just never like much of his work. Not saying he wasn't good, just sayin his work was overrated to me.....

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    Your opinion is so much more meaningful to me than a hall of fame basketball player and a sports writer that gets paid to give his opinion.

    I cant even begin to express how much value I put into you telling me that I'm wrong when my opinion agrees with a hall of famer and one of the better Boston sports writers of all time.

    Please do it more often.
    There... there... it reminds of 20 years ago when younger folk were claiming "New Kids on the Block" were better then the Beatles. Read these quotes - assuming you actually have an open mind - took me all of 7 minutes to dig them up.

    Celtics president Red Auerbach, the winningest NBA coach in history with more than 1,000 victories before he retired to the front office, called Bird “the greatest player ever to play the game.”

    Coach George Karl of the Cleveland Cavaliers told ray Didinger of the Knight News Service: “Bird is so far ahead of everyone else, he’s in a different century. I’ve never seen anyone better. “Given the choice between Kareem (Jabbar) and Bird, I’d take Bird. He rebounds like a center, passes like a guard, shoots lights out from 20 feet. Besides all that, he’s a killer. Hell do anything to win.”

    "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy, now a Celtics broadcaster. "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest." Chimes in Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood. "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't." Even Laker general manager Jerry West, who refuses to compare players from different eras, says of Bird, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."

    Dr. J. calls him a basketball genius and he was. It was what made him so much fun to watch for me. James Worthy used to talk about how mentally exhausted he got covering Bird.

    Jones: "I think Paul Pierce is the best scorer in Celtics history." Walton: "Uh, have you ever heard of a player named LARRY BIRD?!"

    Minihane: "2. Larry Bird

    There is some momentum in Boston a regarding the idea that Pierce might be the best offensive player in Celtics history, it's been kicked around for a couple of years and gained steam when Pierce passed Bird on the scoring list earlier this year. It seems that this is the title that all have agreed will be bestowed on Pierce when he retires, and at first glance it's a fine fit.

    And I'm on board with the idea that Pierce can find the most ways to score in Celtics history - drive to the basket, post up and come off screens to hit a jumper with equal skill - but Larry Bird is the best offensive player in team history by a huge margin. Pierce's career high in field-goal percentage is .497, a number topped by Bird five times in his career (Bird's career FG percentage is .496) Bird's career free-throw percentage is higher than any season Pierce has ever had, and his career 3-point percentage is higher than Pierce's. Oh, and Bird is one of the two or three best passers who have ever lived. "

    Rob Nelson: "Look at these numbers. From 1983 through the 1988 season, Bird averaged 28 points a game. Pierce has never averaged 28 points a game in a single season. In only 897 games Larry scored 21,791 points. Pierce has played in more games (920) and still has a less points than Bird. This is even more amazing when you realize the fact Bird only played 13 seasons. The final four seasons were injury plagued and he scored under 4000 points. This means Bird scored 17,000 plus points in only 9 years. Pierce hit for 15,000 plus good for a little under 200 points of difference.

    The bottom line is Bird was the greatest scorer in Celtics history. The numbers clearly paint the picture that Bird is the man in the scoring department. He was a super nova that burned out too quickly. How many more points would he have scored had his body held up? Bird on offense was like watching an expert surgeon go to work. Bird had the mid range jump shot, he could score off picks or screens, he could drive the lane, he could score in transition, he had the long range bomb, and above all the desire to score from any place he wanted on the floor. The debate can keep people occupied. Pierce or Bird has no real losers, but for those that saw Bird in his prime know that Bird was the greatest scorer that they ever saw."

    ################################

    So, has any current player or Coach claim Pierce is the GOAT? (outside of Celtic employee's)

    How many 1st Team NBA teams has PP made? ZERO - Bird made NINE

    How many times did he average over 27 PPG? ZERO - Bird did it 3 times

    Did you want to get into assists and offensive rebounds as well? Because Bird roasts PP there as well.

    How ebout eFG% 3PT% FT% - no, no, no - Bird wins them all.

    So where does the proposition come that PP was a superior offensive force to Bird? From the crowd seemingly that thinks more career points that took about 100 games more to get?

    How about Bird's 3897 points in the playoffs compared to PP 2728? Unlikely to be broken by PP.

    Regular season + playoffs:

    LB: 3897+21791=25688 points in 1061 total games (24.2 PPG)

    PP: 2728+22591=25319 points in 1155 total games (21.9 PPG)

    Every generation has to have "it's guy". Too bad it had to be PP for this group, because PP offensively could touch Bird. PP needed KG, RA, Posey, House, Davis, and Thibodeau added to the Celts to get to the one title he's been connected to. By the end of this year he will have made ~$178M in salary - and he can't carry Bird's jock.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 10-29-2012 at 02:04 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    Pierce has a higher TS% than Kobe....Is he the better scorer?

    I use stats when applicable, I dont pass them off as the gospel. There's plenty of times what statistics aren't the end-all-be-all.
    For sure. Roll some tape. Do you have the 5 DVD Celtics History set? Plenty of Utube as well.

    to whomever said that they want the ball in Pierces hands at the end of games (or even quarters) compared to Bird is daft. Bird was far more successful/aware/capable in those situations then Pierce - and it's not even close.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  7. #22
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    Bird was better during his time in the league, but I'm not so sure he'd be as successful in this era. Players are much more athletic across the positions than the Bird years.

    Bird never hit 100 3-pointers in one season, yet PP hit over 100 12 times. Pierce has hit 1,000 more 3's than Bird, and he only played about 125 more games.

    Both Bird and Pierce have hit the 2,000 points plateau 4 different seasons. If Bird was astronomically better, why didn't he do that more than Pierce?

    I actually feel Bird is the better all around player, as he could rebound and assist ahead of Pierce. However, as far as offensive skills and moves, I'd take Pierce.

    And Ainge played with Bird and has seen both play, so his opinion is sound. I don't think he's biased based on wanting to promote his current players.


    "Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    Bird was better during his time in the league, but I'm not so sure he'd be as successful in this era. Players are much more athletic across the positions than the Bird years.
    Perhaps, but if you allow this argument, then Cousy, Russell and many other Celt greats go way down the drain - Bird less than most.

    Bird never hit 100 3-pointers in one season, yet PP hit over 100 12 times. Pierce has hit 1,000 more 3's than Bird, and he only played about 125 more games.
    The 3 PT'er just got going in Bird's early years and he was the master of the NBA 3 PT shooters in his time. Career wise Bird still shot better from the 3, which indicates he could have shot more and done it well. Even with the 2 PT shots, Bird still has a higher PPG in season and in playoffs. Those 3's didn't help PP enough as he's never been 1st team All NBA.

    Both Bird and Pierce have hit the 2,000 points plateau 4 different seasons. If Bird was astronomically better, why didn't he do that more than Pierce?
    Oh let's see - he played less years? Also, Bird's assist numbers are almost double of Pierce's, if Bird had been more like Pierce with his passing talents or interest he would have bagged 2000 points more often - also Bird's best 3 years in PPG are higher then PP's best - how to explain that?

    I actually feel Bird is the better all around player, as he could rebound and assist ahead of Pierce. However, as far as offensive skills and moves, I'd take Pierce.
    But the thread is best offensive player, not best scorer (still Bird), or best shooter (still Bird), but also includes assists and offensive rebounds.

    And Ainge played with Bird and has seen both play, so his opinion is sound. I don't think he's biased based on wanting to promote his current players.
    He's the GM of a team with a player on it. Is it good policy for him to whistfully talk about the old days and how Bird smoked everyone? I dug up what about 12-14 sources in a few minutes that are talking Bird as the GOAT and/or best offensive player all time. How many current players and coaches say PP is the GOAT or even the best offensive player in the league? Right - none.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    Bird was better during his time in the league, but I'm not so sure he'd be as successful in this era. Players are much more athletic across the positions than the Bird years.

    Bird never hit 100 3-pointers in one season, yet PP hit over 100 12 times. Pierce has hit 1,000 more 3's than Bird, and he only played about 125 more games.

    Both Bird and Pierce have hit the 2,000 points plateau 4 different seasons. If Bird was astronomically better, why didn't he do that more than Pierce?

    I actually feel Bird is the better all around player, as he could rebound and assist ahead of Pierce. However, as far as offensive skills and moves, I'd take Pierce.

    And Ainge played with Bird and has seen both play, so his opinion is sound. I don't think he's biased based on wanting to promote his current players.


    Oh dear God! Has no idea of which he speaks....

    ^This is by far the worst thing I have read in many years.

    Are you guys making this up? Just wondering if some are just trying to debate Bagwell368?

    If not, your opinion on this is hard to follow. To even compare P. Peirce to Bird or Hondo in anything other than checkers and maybe that to, well is just foolish.

    Unreal^
    Last edited by Bird Fan; 10-29-2012 at 11:58 AM.

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Perhaps, but if you allow this argument, then Cousy, Russell and many other Celt greats go way down the drain - Bird less than most.



    The 3 PT'er just got going in Bird's early years and he was the master of the NBA 3 PT shooters in his time. Career wise Bird still shot better from the 3, which indicates he could have shot more and done it well. Even with the 2 PT shots, Bird still has a higher PPG in season and in playoffs. Those 3's didn't help PP enough as he's never been 1st team All NBA.



    Oh let's see - he played less years? Also, Bird's assist numbers are almost double of Pierce's, if Bird had been more like Pierce with his passing talents or interest he would have bagged 2000 points more often - also Bird's best 3 years in PPG are higher then PP's best - how to explain that?



    But the thread is best offensive player, not best scorer (still Bird), or best shooter (still Bird), but also includes assists and offensive rebounds.



    He's the GM of a team with a player on it. Is it good policy for him to whistfully talk about the old days and how Bird smoked everyone? I dug up what about 12-14 sources in a few minutes that are talking Bird as the GOAT and/or best offensive player all time. How many current players and coaches say PP is the GOAT or even the best offensive player in the league? Right - none.
    ^ 100% right here. Nice post!

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  11. #26
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    Remember Danny Ainge is the GM Boston Celtics, his current player is P. Pierce. He is going to say this. Don't think for one minute Danny Ainge feels that way.

    Guy's it's a business, remember that. Danny is saying and doing what is best for his product/ brand/ team. Danny is saying what GM's say when asked about players, trust me.

    His/ DA " great relationship " with Larry Bird is a question, trust me.

    I have told many employee's that they are the best, better than the last, really great at something, best employee of year, best employee ever. It's called leadership/ management/ ownership.

    You are trying to help your product/ name/ brand, it's called good business.

    LARRY BIRD
    NBA WORLD CHAMPION 1981,1984,1986

    " The greatest basketball player and mind of all time. "

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bird Fan View Post


    Oh dear God! Has no idea of which he speaks....

    ^This is by far the worst thing I have read in many years.

    Are you guys making this up? Just wondering if some are just trying to debate Bagwell368?

    If not, your opinion on this is hard to follow. To even compare P. Peirce to Bird or Hondo in anything other than checkers and maybe that to, well is just foolish.

    Unreal^
    Wow, what Bird fanboy . I said he was the better player and you're still whining.

    You should make a sign for a Celtics home game this season, with the word "FOOLISH" on it, and arrows pointing to photos of Mike and Tommy. Sit right behind them and chant "fools" all game.

    After all, it isn't like Mike Gorman has seen more of both Bird and Pierce play than anyone on the planet. Nice try with your Ainge crap, but where's your argument on Gorman??

    http://www.telegram.com/article/2012...13/1009/sports


    Mike:
    Mike Gorman’s first year of calling Celtics games on television was Larry Bird’s rookie season, but he prefers Paul Pierce in crunch time.

    “I just would probably want the ball,” the longtime CSNE play-by-play voice said, “in Paul Pierce’s hands at the end of a game if I could pick one player that I needed to get points on the board from. I know that sounds like heresy to a lot of people given all the great clutch shots that Larry made, but Paul has made his share of clutch shots, too. Where Larry, well deserved, always got a ton of credit, I never thought Paul got anywhere near as much credit as he should have gotten.”
    Tommy:
    Tommy Heinsohn, who played with and coached Havlicek and has analyzed Bird’s and Pierce’s games on television, called Pierce the best “pure scorer” in Celtics history.

    “Paul Pierce is a better athlete,” Heinsohn said. “Bird had the ball in his hands more than Paul Pierce does because he was a great passer, and he could create offense for other people, which helped him not have to be an athlete. He could read the defense and score, and he had a great 3-point shot.

    “Paul Pierce has all the weapons against athletic people, so he’s got the strong finish, he’s got the tweener shot, he’s got the 3-point shot, and he’s a terrific athlete.”


    "Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

  13. #28
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    So far, we've got:

    Parish
    Bob Ryan
    Mike Gorman
    Tommy
    Ainge

    But, wait. We're supposed to take Bags' and Birdfan's argument over all those other guys??


    "Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

  14. #29
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    Bird vs PP offensively:

    Seasons:

    Over 1700 points scored: LB: 10 > PP: 6

    ORB over 150 boards: LB: 7 (ORB% 5.9) >> PP: 0 (ORB% 3.0)

    Assists over 400: LB: 10 >> PP: 1

    Career:

    FT%: LB: .886 >> PP .807

    3PT%: LB: .376 > PP: .369

    TS%: PP: .569 > LB: .564

    eFG%: LB: .514 > PP: .499

    Playoffs:

    years over 400 points: LB: 5 >> PP: 2

    years over 100 assists: LB: 6 >> PP: 1

    years over 30 OREB: LB: 6 >> PP: 0

    Advanced:

    Offensive Rating: Bird 114.5 (47th all time) > PP 109.3 (175th all time)

    Offensive Win Shares 86.8 (31st) > 78.1 (39th *)

    * 22.3% less OWS per games then Bird's rate

    Some say Bird got so many points and assists because he held the ball so much:

    Playoff USEG: PP: 26.6 - LB: 24.4

    Regular Season: PP: 27.8 - LB: 26.5

    So, Larry had the ball less - but did more - is that why PP is better???

    Turnovers - that's it!!

    PP: 13.1 > LB: 12.7 more is better - right? Oh yeah.... no!


    So, all these stats except one have LB ahead of PP - mostly by a LOT.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    Nice try with your Ainge crap, but where's your argument on Gorman??
    Who pays Gorman, and where did they get the money for it?


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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