Lebron "I Want To Be The Best Of All Time"

[Supreme LA]

I disagree. Just because Jordan was 6 for 6 in the Finals doesn't mean he'll necessarily have the better career. If that was the only contributing factor, then Bill Russell would undeniably be the greatest of all-time. I would argue that (like Lebron), MJ struggled in his early career to get past a superior team (Pistons) until he got a supporting cast capable of doing so.


Yeahhh.... I disagree wholeheartedly with both of these things. You're treating Scottie Pippen like a role player, while he was a top 25-30 all-time player, himself. And as far as defense goes, I would argue that Lebron's impact on defense is probably greater than MJ's.

But Pippen never demanded a double team. And MJ made Pippen the player he was. You can't deny the fact that MJ carried his team offensively with no other player demanding a double team. There is no denying that Pippen was a big factor defensively. Lebron can't say that and Lebron can't say he made Wade or Bosh. They were who they before he got there. So it doesn't matter what you think?

What are we debating about really?? You can't have a better career than MJ period. Lebron lost his chance when he lost his 1st 2 Finals and hounded up with Wade and Bosh.

And who determines GOAT? Public majority opinion? Outside of winning the next 6 championships in a row, Lebron really has no shot to sway the majority. He can certainly convince the kids of today who never watched MJ but the majority and legends of the game? That is very unlikely.

[KB-Pau-DH2012]

By being better.

llullz, dude, just stick to your boy KD.

[mightybosstone]

June 17th, 2010.

I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

[KB-Pau-DH2012]

I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

Kobe is 8th for me right now just ahead of Timmy and Hakeem. Nice to know that you and I have the same 10 players on our list.

[Supreme LA]

I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

Kobe is above Duncan and Hakeem.

And how does Kobe not belong in the same breath as the top 5 like Magic and Larry or MJ if you say Lebron deserves to be in the same breath as MJ now? That makes no sense and no matter how you try to support that idea you'll continually contradict yourself.

Kobe is in the same breath as Magic and Larry.

[mightybosstone]

But Pippen never demanded a double team. So it doesn't matter what you think?

WTF are you talking about? Did you even watch Pippen play? Aside from Lebron, Pippen was probably the greatest point forward in the history of the game. He consistently posted 20/5/6 for much of his career (not counting the fact that he's arguably the greatest wing defender in the history of the NBA).

What are we debating about really?? You can't have a better career than MJ period. Lebron lost his chance when he lost his 1st 2 Finals and hounded up with Wade and Bosh.

Lol. Career arguments are always going to be a moot point. So, yes, technically you can have a greater career than MJ. And the whole "Lebron couldn't win without Wade and Bosh" argument is completely BS when you consider that MJ couldn't win one until Pippen came into his prime or the fact that other all time greats also played with all-time great players (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, etc.).

And who determines GOAT? Public majority opinion? Outside of winning the next 6 championships in a row, Lebron really has no shot to sway the majority. That is very unlikely.

Lebron doesn't need to win seven championships to surpass MJ, because championships are not the only contributing factor to a player's career. If they were, than Robert Horry would have technically had a greater career than Jordan.

[Supreme LA]

WTF are you talking about? Did you even watch Pippen play? Aside from Lebron, Pippen was probably the greatest point forward in the history of the game. He consistently posted 20/5/6 for much of his career (not counting the fact that he's arguably the greatest wing defender in the history of the NBA).


Lol. Career arguments are always going to be a moot point. So, yes, technically you can have a greater career than MJ. And the whole "Lebron couldn't win without Wade and Bosh" argument is completely BS when you consider that MJ couldn't win one until Pippen came into his prime or the fact that other all time greats also played with all-time great players (Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, etc.).


Lebron doesn't need to win seven championships to surpass MJ, because championships are not the only contributing factor to a player's career. If they were, than Robert Horry would have technically had a greater career than Jordan.

Wtf am I talking about??? I watched every Bulls game in the late 80's and throughout the 90's.

And why are you so defensive? You're not convincing anybody of this BS. I'm done now that you keep throwing that stupid Robert Horry comparison. You know the difference but you won't agknowledge it.

This is pointless. Lebron isn't there yet and here you are putting him there as if he's already surpassed MJ
.
It's a waste of my time and energy debating with people like you

[BKLYNpigeon]

all said and done Lebron will probably win a few titles, but I bet you he does it with 3-4 teams. The guy is a ring chaser and that will always be remembered that way.

[todu82]

Lebron's a great player and he's going to be 1 of the all-time great but I doubt he eclipse Jordan, Jabbar or Chamberlain as the best player ever.

[Bravo95]

Jordan's at the top because of all the great players he prevented from winning it all. Six rings, the number itself, doesn't really matter. MJ ended the reign of Magic Bird and Isiah, and became the #1 roadblock in the 90s. If James ends Bryant's reign that same way and becomes that modern-day roadblock and prevents guys like Howard, Durant, Rose, Anthony, Williams, Paul, and Nash from winning anything from here until the end of his prime, he will definitely have an argument for the top spot next to Jordan, no matter how many bad 'Decisions' he makes.

[HouRealCoach]

Losing in the finals twice already and joining a guy that already won a chip and finals MVP without him takes him out of the running.

But he will probably finish Top 10 all time.

Then again playing for a franchise that expects you to win a championship with Mo Williams as the second best player and forcing you to play 1 on 5 offense doesn't help either... At the end of the day he did what he had to do and has a Season MVP, NBA Title, & a Finals MVP to show for it

I say at least top 5

[mightybosstone]

Kobe is above Duncan and Hakeem.

And how does Kobe not belong in the same breath as the top 5 like Magic and Larry or MJ if you say Lebron deserves to be in the same breath as MJ now? That makes no sense and no matter how you try to support that idea you'll continually contradict yourself.

Kobe is in the same breath as Magic and Larry.

How have I contradicted myself? If you want to know why Kobe doesn't belong in the same discussion as Magic or Bird, you just need to consider two factors:

1. Advanced stats. Magic and Bird both averaged over .200 in WS/48 over their careers and consistently topped that number, whereas Kobe's early and later seasons have hurt him (.184 career WS/48). Kobe's also nowhere near as efficient a scorer as Bird or Magic with his career .554 TS/%. And while Kobe was a very good defensive player and a pretty good distributor, he can't touch Magic's passing or Bird's defense. Bird was also a better distributor.

2. MVPs/Best Player Argument. Magic and Bird both won three MVPs and were consistently 1a and 1b as the league's best players in the 80s. You could perhaps make an argument for 2005-2006, but Kobe was probably never the greatest player in the league at any time. Shaq and Duncan were clearly better earlier in his career, while Lebron has been the best later in his career. Bryant's one MVP was more of a lifetime achievement award than a legit MVP.

[JordansBulls]

I disagree. Just because Jordan was 6 for 6 in the Finals doesn't mean he'll necessarily have the better career. If that was the only contributing factor, then Bill Russell would undeniably be the greatest of all-time. I would argue that (like Lebron), MJ struggled in his early career to get past a superior team (Pistons) until he got a supporting cast capable of doing so.


Yeahhh.... I disagree wholeheartedly with both of these things. You're treating Scottie Pippen like a role player, while he was a top 25-30 all-time player, himself. And as far as defense goes, I would argue that Lebron's impact on defense is probably greater than MJ's.

He isn't going to pass MJ on this considering he would have already lost 3 series with HCA while MJ none and also how MJ took an organization that was a losing organization and turned them into a dynasty. Lebron went to play with guys who got it done as the man so that will never help him in comparison to someone like MJ. Also that MJ is as statistically dominant if not more so since he is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs.
Not to mention defensively it isn't even close. Lebron had guys at his own position who averaged more ppg in a series than he did and even at better FG% while MJ never even had any other player on the floor average more than him.

Jordan didn't need 11 rings because he was on a completely different level than Russell statistically (and also Russell won 25 series to get 11 rings, MJ had to win 24 series to just get 6 rings, so the situation was not comparable here.)

MJ didn't need to average 50 ppg like Wilt because he was on a completely different level than Wilt in terms of accolades/titles (at least 100% more of the important accolades/titles - MVP's/FMVP's/titles etc.).

Lebron, however, cannot possibly be on another level from Jordan statistically
(he may end up being as good (right now MJ is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and #1 all time in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs) if he keeps up current/similar production in the regular and postseasons for another 6-8 years; it would be a marginal difference, however, unlike Russell/MJ).
Lebron also cannot amass enough accolades/titles to put himself on another level from MJ (5 MVP's, 10-11 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 FMVP's, 6 titles, defensive recognition etc.), so he would have to differentiate himself some other way - namely, statistically - but as we've seen, he really can't do that either. So yeah, he does have to basically match or exceed Jordan in all of these areas (accolades/titles, production, defensive impact), since it's unlikely that he can do enough in one of those categories to completely shatter what Jordan did in that category so as to make his sum total case for GOAT stronger overall.

Few people really grasp the enormity of what Jordan accomplished.

So to me things if the debate ever got close, MJ going 24-0 in series with HCA and always winning as the man and not having anyone on his teams who won league or finals mvp and also taking a franchise that never won before prior to him arriving and turning it into a dynasty is what I would consider a tie breaker sort to speak.

Remember the HCA, Taking an organization that never won before, etc only matters if the players are close to the same level.
So Isiah Thomas doing it on the Pistons doesn't mean much when comparing him to Magic Johnson or Larry Bird, but in comparison to someone like Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, etc it does.

[mightybosstone]

Wtf am I talking about??? I watched every Bulls game in the late 80's and throughout the 90's.

And why are you so defensive? You're not convincing anybody of this BS. I'm done now that you keep throwing that stupid Robert Horry comparison. You know the difference but you won't agknowledge it.

This is pointless. Lebron isn't there yet and here you are putting him there as if he's already surpassed MJ
.
It's a waste of my time and energy debating with people like you

Lol. I'm not the defensive one, sir. I believe that honor belongs to you. And I'm not in any way saying that Lebron deserves to be in the same discussion as MJ yet. But I also don't think it's fair to say that MJ is completely untouchable and always will be. I think Lebron has a lot of work to do, but he's on a path to at least be in the conversation as possibly the GOAT.

MJ is first in career PER and WS/48, but Lebron is second and sixth in those categories, respectively. He won five MVPs, Lebron has won three. the only area MJ clearly surpasses Lebron in substantially is rings. With time, if Lebron can come close to MJ in some of these categories, he could potentially be in the discussion.

[KnicksorBust]

I love you KOB, but Kobe doesn't belong in the same breath as "top 5" unless we're talking about Lakers or shooting guards. I would easily take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Bird and Duncan over him, and would also take Wilt and Russell. That puts Kobe at 10th, which is the highest he will ever climb. And once Lebron continues to win MVPs and championships, he will easily surpass Kobe, and eventually pass a lot of the guys on that list.

I don't care who you would "take over him." If you stack up career resumes, Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Duncan all drift slowly to the back of the room.