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"You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."
Angel had a down season last year, the worst of his career. Angel's career numbers are very comparable to Reyes.
Pagan career wRC+: 104
Reyes career wRC+: 107
So yeah Reyes is better but it's close.
wRC+ takes into account the ballpark and league. WAR takes into account defense and the position played which hurts Beltran.
Beltran right now is older and plays RF, so his value is not nearly as high as it used to.
In 2011 he had a down year, whats your point?
So he isn't the caliber of player those two are, it doesn't change the fact he has had similar if not more significant impact on the field in recent years than Reyes and Beltran.
FYI, Pagan also had a better fWAR in 2010 as 5.4 to Reyes 2.9.
The guy caught on later in his career, it doesn't negate the premise that he has become a productive player.
Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 08:28 PM.
There is really no other point here than the Mets sold low on Angel Pagan.
They took a chance on a guy in Andres Torres who clearly regressed from his 2010 WS run with the Giants and a solid relief pitcher who couldn't cut in NY.
WAR uses subjective statistics.
Pagan has had 3 above average years and one of them he played 88 games. He's a nice complementary player, and nothing more. He's in no way same caliber of player that Beltran and Reyes are.
There is no way we were going to get a Wheeler type of prospect for Pagan, at best we could of gotten a Captain Kirk type of prospect.
And 2010 a healthy Pagan posted an ops .765, a thyroid-hamstring recovering Reyes posted a .749.
Last edited by Claymation; 11-01-2012 at 08:40 PM.
"You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."
"You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."
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I understand metrics can be subjective especially defensive ones but there's also the possibility they could have retained Pagan.
They essentially added more payroll and did the 2-1 swap thinking that Torres and Ramirez would amount to more and have more effect on this team.
I honestly didn't buy Andres Torres but will completely admit Ramirez's ineffectiveness threw me for a loop.
I know his OPS wasn't particularly impressive but they had just let a switch hitting very productive leadoff hitter walk and then they trade his only alternative too?
I don't know how about you but going into a new season having no idea who would be your everyday leadoff guy is not a good start imo.
I don't get it neither do i understand the confidence Sandy had in Torres coming off a terrible 2011 campaign.
Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 08:44 PM.
Maybe keep him?
Do the Mets have any intention of keeping productive players past Wright and Dickey going forward?
You said it yourself there is no way he gets a qualifying offer, that should have been enough to have kept him in the Met's plans even if he hit FA on a high note.
Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 08:44 PM.
"You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."
It's more effective than what they have currently.
Ruben Tejada is not a leadoff hitter, neither can Torres be one everyday, and Captain Kirk strikes out way too much at this point to hold that spot down.
Pagan's SB ability, speed at the top of the lineup (which the Mets didn't have any speed essentially this year) and defensive prowess alone (admittedly when his head is in the game) were enough to keep him in CF.
Reye's OBP was only 9 points higher than Pagan's was this year (.347 to .338).
Under that qualification Reyes isn't an effective leadoff hitter anymore either.
Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 09:01 PM.
"You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."
Career numbers are career numbers.
Is Pagan going to have the numbers Reyes has by quality of player?
No of course not but you can't say that Pagan wouldn't have had more of a positive effect from the leadoff spot than Tejada or any of those options given the aforementioned inevitability that Reyes walked.
It's all moot now because both are gone but at least the Mets would have one less position to worry about last season and possibly this offseason if Pagan was still here.
Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 09:39 PM.
"You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."
Double post.
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