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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    He has averaged 4.3 walks per 9, it's not good but a different picture than the one you are painting.

    From what I read he throws 92-93 with a sharp sider in the 80's.


    From Mr. Hyde.
    This year he had 6.2 BB/9 between A+ and AA which is atrocious for a reliever.

    That "Mets official" is probably being a little too generous with him, because if he had those 3 good pitches, he'd probably be a starter.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    No but he's close and this year he was better.

    2012 Pagan: 113 wRC+, 4.8 WAR
    2012 Reyes: 109 wRC+, 4.5 WAR
    2012 Beltran 125 wRC+, 3.6 WAR
    Pagan posted an ops of .778 and an ops of .694 last year
    Reyes posted an ops of .780 and an ops of .877 last year
    Beltran posted an ops of .842 and an ops .942 last year

    I don't see what you are seeing.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Pagan posted an ops of .778 and an ops of .694 last year
    Reyes posted an ops of .780 and an ops of .877 last year
    Beltran posted an ops of .842 and an ops .942 last year

    I don't see what you are seeing.
    Angel had a down season last year, the worst of his career. Angel's career numbers are very comparable to Reyes.

    Pagan career wRC+: 104
    Reyes career wRC+: 107

    So yeah Reyes is better but it's close.

    wRC+ takes into account the ballpark and league. WAR takes into account defense and the position played which hurts Beltran.

    Beltran right now is older and plays RF, so his value is not nearly as high as it used to.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Pagan posted an ops of .778 and an ops of .694 last year
    Reyes posted an ops of .780 and an ops of .877 last year
    Beltran posted an ops of .842 and an ops .942 last year

    I don't see what you are seeing.
    In 2011 he had a down year, whats your point?

    So he isn't the caliber of player those two are, it doesn't change the fact he has had similar if not more significant impact on the field in recent years than Reyes and Beltran.

    FYI, Pagan also had a better fWAR in 2010 as 5.4 to Reyes 2.9.

    The guy caught on later in his career, it doesn't negate the premise that he has become a productive player.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 08:28 PM.

  5. #260
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    There is really no other point here than the Mets sold low on Angel Pagan.

    They took a chance on a guy in Andres Torres who clearly regressed from his 2010 WS run with the Giants and a solid relief pitcher who couldn't cut in NY.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    In 2011 he had a down year, whats your point?

    So he isn't the caliber of player those two are, it doesn't change the fact he has had similar if not more significant impacts on the field in recent years than Reyes and Beltran.

    FYI, Pagan also had a better fWAR in 2010 as 5.4 to Reyes 2.9.

    The guy caught on later in his career, it doesn't change the fact that he has become a productive player.
    WAR uses subjective statistics.

    Pagan has had 3 above average years and one of them he played 88 games. He's a nice complementary player, and nothing more. He's in no way same caliber of player that Beltran and Reyes are.

    There is no way we were going to get a Wheeler type of prospect for Pagan, at best we could of gotten a Captain Kirk type of prospect.

    And 2010 a healthy Pagan posted an ops .765, a thyroid-hamstring recovering Reyes posted a .749.
    Last edited by Claymation; 11-01-2012 at 08:40 PM.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    There is really no other point here than the Mets sold low on Angel Pagan.

    They took a chance on a guy in Andres Torres who clearly regressed from his 2010 WS run with the Giants and a solid relief pitcher who couldn't cut in NY.
    He's a FA this year, when were they going to trade him? And the fact that the Mets weren't going to be compensated with picks, what do you think they could of gotten for him?


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    WAR uses subjective statistics.

    Pagan has had 3 above average years and one of them he played 88 games. He's a nice complementary player, and nothing more. He's in no way same caliber of player that Beltran and Reyes are.

    There is no way we were going to get a Wheeler type of prospect for Pagan, at best we could of gotten a Lucas Duda type of prospect.

    And 2010 a healthy Pagan posted an ops .765, a thyroid-hamstring recovering Reyes posted a .749.
    I understand metrics can be subjective especially defensive ones but there's also the possibility they could have retained Pagan.

    They essentially added more payroll and did the 2-1 swap thinking that Torres and Ramirez would amount to more and have more effect on this team.

    I honestly didn't buy Andres Torres but will completely admit Ramirez's ineffectiveness threw me for a loop.

    I know his OPS wasn't particularly impressive but they had just let a switch hitting very productive leadoff hitter walk and then they trade his only alternative too?

    I don't know how about you but going into a new season having no idea who would be your everyday leadoff guy is not a good start imo.

    I don't get it neither do i understand the confidence Sandy had in Torres coming off a terrible 2011 campaign.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 08:44 PM.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    He's a FA this year, when were they going to trade him? And the fact that the Mets weren't going to be compensated with picks, what do you think they could of gotten for him?
    Maybe keep him?

    Do the Mets have any intention of keeping productive players past Wright and Dickey going forward?

    You said it yourself there is no way he gets a qualifying offer, that should have been enough to have kept him in the Met's plans even if he hit FA on a high note.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 08:44 PM.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I understand metrics can be subjective especially defensive ones but there's also the possibility they could have retained Pagan.

    They essentially added more payroll and did the 2-1 swap thinking that Torres and Ramirez would amount to more and have more effect on this team.

    I honestly didn't buy Andres Torres but will completely admit Ramirez's ineffectiveness threw me for a loop.

    I know his OPS wasn't particularly impressive but they had just let a switch hitting very productive leadoff hitter walk and then they trade their only alternative too?

    I don't get it neither do i understand the confidence Sandy had in Torres coming off a terrible 2011 campaign.
    A career .333 obp, is not an effective leadoff hitter.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    A career .333 obp, is not an effective leadoff hitter.
    It's more effective than what they have currently.

    Ruben Tejada is not a leadoff hitter, neither can Torres be one everyday, and Captain Kirk strikes out way too much at this point to hold that spot down.

    Pagan's SB ability, speed at the top of the lineup (which the Mets didn't have any speed essentially this year) and defensive prowess alone (admittedly when his head is in the game) were enough to keep him in CF.

    Reye's OBP was only 9 points higher than Pagan's was this year (.347 to .338).

    Under that qualification Reyes isn't an effective leadoff hitter anymore either.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 09:01 PM.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    It's more effective than what they have currently.

    Ruben Tejada is not a leadoff hitter, neither can Torres be one everyday, and Captain Kirk strikes out way too much at this point to hold that spot down.

    Pagan's SB ability and defensive prowess alone (admittedly when his head is in the game) were enough to keep him in CF.

    Reye's OBP was only 9 points higher than Pagan's was this year (.347 to .338).

    Under that qualification Reyes isn't an effective leadoff hitter either anymore.
    Reyes has had 5 season of .350 or better in obp since 2006. Pagan has had 1.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Reyes has had 5 season of .350 or better in obp since 2006. Pagan has had 1.
    Career numbers are career numbers.

    Is Pagan going to have the numbers Reyes has by quality of player?

    No of course not but you can't say that Pagan wouldn't have had more of a positive effect from the leadoff spot than Tejada or any of those options given the aforementioned inevitability that Reyes walked.

    It's all moot now because both are gone but at least the Mets would have one less position to worry about last season and possibly this offseason if Pagan was still here.
    Last edited by metswon69; 11-01-2012 at 09:39 PM.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Career numbers are career numbers.

    Is Pagan going to have the numbers Reyes has by quality of player?

    No of course not but you can't say that Pagan wouldn't have had more of a positive effect from the leadoff spot than Tejada or any of those options given the aforementioned inevitability that Reyes walked.

    It's all moot now because both are gone but at least the Mets would have one less position to worry about this offseason if Pagan was still here.
    Exactly, Pagan is not the caliber of player that Reyes or Beltran is.
    So to expect the return that Beltran got or Reyes got is ill-advised.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  15. #270
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    Double post.

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