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  1. #226
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    Losing Beltran, Reyes, and Pagan hurt this team regardless of the sour grapes some people have after the fact.

    Wheeler is great but we should have gotten more than him and Plawecki for those 3 guys.

    Edit: I know we got Ramirez and Torres for Pagan but considering how underwhelming both guys were and the fact that they won't be back (hopefully in Torre's case) we got the **** end of the stick in overall value for all 3 guys.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-30-2012 at 11:50 PM.

  2. #227
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    The Pagan trade turned out to be bad because the Mets did not get any young guys for him, but 2 older players who did not produced. The Mets would of been better off to keep him than to have done that because reality was that those 2 guys really would not have made the Mets better for the long run and that is how they are building this team now. Cant trade an asset for win now type players who are not that good.

  3. #228
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    Yeah i mean they should have seen Torre's 2010 season was an aberration by how poorly he played in 2011.

    There was a reason why the guy didn't play significant time in the majors till he was 31 and had 285 PA in his 20s.

    I know some guys develop later on but the league figured Torres out relatively quickly after that 2010 season.

  4. #229
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    No I think Torres just lost some of that ability, he was a force for that 2010 Giants team.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    No I think Torres just lost some of that ability, he was a force for that 2010 Giants team.
    There is no way Torres becomes nearly that effective against RHP again.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits....OF&season=2010

    He went from hitting .283 that year with 14 homers and 46 RBIS to being a guy who hit .229 against RHP in 2011 and .194 in 2012.

    It's not going to happen.

    Torres is at best a platoon bat again LHP who plays an above average CF and that's all he is.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-31-2012 at 04:25 AM.

  6. #231
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    Considering he hasn't carried over any of that success he had in SF in 2010, i would call what he did that year an aberration without a second thought.

    His HR/FB has dropped from 11% or 3.9% in 2011 and his WPA dropped from 2.42 in 2010 to -.42 in 2011.

    I think Sandy took a gamble hoping that Andres was more the player he was in 2010 and we come to found out he is more like the player he was in 2011.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-31-2012 at 04:29 AM.

  7. #232
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    He had one fluke season, that's all there is to it, and SA got fooled by it.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspy44 View Post
    How many players have actually flopped here and/or went onto excel elsewhere? Other than a couple relievers (which tend to be rather up and down in general)and Bay (who excelled on an awful Pirates team)...there haven't been very many busts. THe list of recent players who were terrible here and excelled after leaving is even shorter.

    Pagan was much better as a Met than his previous team. Hairston was better here than his previous years. Dickey was barely major league worthy on his other teams and came here as is a Cy Young candidate. Capuano has a better year in LA this year than here..but he was pretty solid here after barely pitching for a couple years...and actually really wanted to stay with the Mets. Reyes was much better in 2011 for the Mets than he was this year for the Marlins. Beltran despite all of the hype with his HRs and stuff (which might largely be a byproduct of playing in a more hitter friendly stadium) was actually better in 2011 by a number of metrics than he was this year. There arent particularly very many guys who stunk here and went on to be great elsewhere. Most of the Mets that performed poorly, performed poorly b/c they aren't good and it was silly to acquire them (i.e., Francisco)...not b/c they were worse than expected.

    There haven't been very many busts?

    Seriously?

    See ck's post above for a start. Pedro was also a bust here. The Mets have been known as a spot where FA's come to die. You'd have to have a pretty short memory not to accept this. Bust after bust after bust.

    You talk about inconsistency with relievers. but look at Ramirez, for FOUR YEARS he was a model of consistency, he comes here and falls off the table.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Well you posed a question about motivation so yeah what Pagan gets in FA this year (even if its not from the Mets) is pretty relevant to why he played so well.

    Like i said the Mets showed up to play in 2011, they weren't very good but you didn't see the unmotivated play out of Beltran, Wright, Murphy, etc etc.

    Do i think the Mets made a mistake dealing Pagan when they did? Yeah selling on him low when needing a leadoff hitter after one just left didn't make sense.

    As for other guys flopping here over the last 10-12 years.

    I don't know what happened to Bay (maybe steroids), same with Alomar, Burnitz was getting older, Vaughn was old, out of shape, and injured, Oliver Perez regressed, Castillo was a bad signing from the get go.

    The Mets FO have made a lot of really bad deals in the last 10-12 years.

    Whether it was Steve Phillips, Jim Duquette dealing for Victor and Kris, Minaya adding payroll left and right on the wrong players after 2006.

    And when you spend big money you lose draft picks which certainly didnt help during that time.

    Beltran had the same reason for motivation as Pagan. And Murchy has to be 100% because he has very limited tools.

    No-one doubts the Mets have been a disaster area for years. Unless you're totally blind that is.

    Add Pagan to the list of bad Met moves. They make so many bad moves, I have to question if the Mets aren't the problem for players.

    In any case none of this gets to the root of this nonsense about 'overpaying', if this team is ever going to get anywhere it is going to have to overpay people and take chances on FA's and long term deals for home-grown talent.

    David Wright is going to get overpaid if he stays here or goes anywhere else. At some point the team and the fans have to start thinking about how to win as many baseball games as possible, not how to lose 85-90 most cost effectively.

    And I see absolutely no sign of that whatsoever.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Losing Beltran, Reyes, and Pagan hurt this team regardless of the sour grapes some people have after the fact.

    Wheeler is great but we should have gotten more than him and Plawecki for those 3 guys.

    Edit: I know we got Ramirez and Torres for Pagan but considering how underwhelming both guys were and the fact that they won't be back (hopefully in Torre's case) we got the **** end of the stick in overall value for all 3 guys.

    A pathetic haul. We could also have got something for Wagner, but the Creeps took the $3M instead.

    This is not a rebuilding team it is a bs'ing team.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Considering he hasn't carried over any of that success he had in SF in 2010, i would call what he did that year an aberration without a second thought.

    His HR/FB has dropped from 11% or 3.9% in 2011 and his WPA dropped from 2.42 in 2010 to -.42 in 2011.

    I think Sandy took a gamble hoping that Andres was more the player he was in 2010 and we come to found out he is more like the player he was in 2011.
    He was extremely good in limited time in 2009 as well. I for one thought he would bounce back which is why I didn't hate the trade at the time.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    Beltran had the same reason for motivation as Pagan. And Murchy has to be 100% because he has very limited tools.

    No-one doubts the Mets have been a disaster area for years. Unless you're totally blind that is.

    Add Pagan to the list of bad Met moves. They make so many bad moves, I have to question if the Mets aren't the problem for players.

    In any case none of this gets to the root of this nonsense about 'overpaying', if this team is ever going to get anywhere it is going to have to overpay people and take chances on FA's and long term deals for home-grown talent.

    David Wright is going to get overpaid if he stays here or goes anywhere else. At some point the team and the fans have to start thinking about how to win as many baseball games as possible, not how to lose 85-90 most cost effectively.

    And I see absolutely no sign of that whatsoever.
    The Mets have had enough individual success from trade acquisition and FA.

    Piazza, Ventura, Olerud, Delgado, Beltran, Lo Duca, etc etc got to us a WS in that time and within one game of it (if El Duque and Pedro hadn't gotten hurt we might have won it in 2006)

    Although the Mets have also had a lot of bad luck, you can pin alot of that bad luck on acquiring players way past their prime. Alomar, Burnitz, Pedro, Vaughn, even the guys i mentioned up top besides Beltran were acquired with a short window of success possible.

    The Mets FO has been bad, having produced 3 possible all star position players to have caught on in 10 years in Reyes, Ike, and Wright.

    I mean to put that into context, Harvey and Wheeler would be the first 2 frontline SP the Mets have gotten people excited about since Doc Gooden. It's amazing an organization built on pitching and we have not seen guys of this ability since 1984 (Generation K obviously having busted)

    Saying that, i won't say coming here is where players go to die. The Mets need to stop making splash moves like Mo Vaughn or Jeremy Burnitz, they need to stop throwing money down the drain on the Oliver Perez's and Luis Castillo's of the world, and if they are going to vastly overpay for someone then it better be the caliber of a player like David Wright or Carlos Beltran.

    It wouldn't hurt every once in a while to keep some of the prospects you have instead of dealing them for Victor Zambrano.

    The Mets have had their run of bad luck in FA and via trade but most of it is of their own doing.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-31-2012 at 03:38 PM.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    The Mets have had enough individual success from trade acquisition and FA.

    Piazza, Ventura, Olerud, Delgado, Beltran, Lo Duca, etc etc got to us a WS in that time and within one game of it (if El Duque and Pedro hadn't gotten hurt we might have won it in 2006)

    Although the Mets have also had a lot of bad luck, you can pin alot of that bad luck on acquiring players way past their prime. Alomar, Burnitz, Pedro, Vaughn, even the guys i mentioned up top besides Beltran were acquired with a short window of success possible.

    The Mets FO has been bad, having produced 3 possible all star position players to have caught on in 10 years in Reyes, Ike, and Wright.

    I mean to put that into context, Harvey and Wheeler would be the first 2 frontline SP the Mets have gotten people excited about since Doc Gooden. It's amazing an organization built on pitching and we have not seen guys of this ability since 1984 (Generation K obviously having busted)

    Saying that, i won't say coming here is where players go to die. The Mets need to stop making splash moves like Mo Vaughn or Jeremy Burnitz, they need to stop throwing money down the drain on the Oliver Perez's and Luis Castillo's of the world, and if they are going to vastly overpay for someone then it better be the caliber of a player like David Wright or Carlos Beltran.

    It wouldn't hurt every once in a while to keep some of the prospects you have instead of dealing them for Victor Zambrano.

    The Mets have had their run of bad luck in FA and via trade but most of it is of their own doing.

    They have to be smarter no doubt, but it's no use being too scared to do anything either. You can make a excuse for not making any move, any move whatsoever, especially the bigger ones. But you have to take chances, nothing is going to fall into our lap.


    All I ever hear from this team is 'We don't want to'. It doesn't matter what it is they don't want to do it.

    Just think how different things could have been if they had done the right thing and got Matt Holliday instead of making up charts to justify getting the clear 2nd best option.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    They have to be smarter no doubt, but it's no use being too scared to do anything either. You can make a excuse for not making any move, any move whatsoever, especially the bigger ones. But you have to take chances, nothing is going to fall into our lap.


    All I ever hear from this team is 'We don't want to'. It doesn't matter what it is they don't want to do it.

    Just think how different things could have been if they had done the right thing and got Matt Holliday instead of making up charts to justify getting the clear 2nd best option.
    I agree 100%.

    They need to take chances but smart chances like Beltran was (even though he did get hurt)

    Get those type of guys no matter what it costs in their late 20s (like a Stanton or Heyward later down the road) and give them 7-8 years where we can get the most value from them.

    They can't acquire star type players well into their 30s and well into their decline like they did with Vaughn.

    Saying that, that shouldn't stop them from signing a fringe 30+ player like a Corey Hart who has great talent.

    They just need to be more selective.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-31-2012 at 07:42 PM.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    There haven't been very many busts?

    Seriously?

    See ck's post above for a start. Pedro was also a bust here. The Mets have been known as a spot where FA's come to die. You'd have to have a pretty short memory not to accept this. Bust after bust after bust.

    You talk about inconsistency with relievers. but look at Ramirez, for FOUR YEARS he was a model of consistency, he comes here and falls off the table.
    The Pedro signing was quite awhile ago. A lot of moves made around that time worked out pretty well.

    But anyway I am not disputing the Mets have made moves that haven't worked out...I'm just disputing your reasoning on why the moves didn't pan out. IMO as I said a bit earlier...many of the moves were predictably bad...they were poor moves, not really ones with shocking outcomes that could be attributed to "bad luck" or a "toxic" environment.

    And in the case of Pedro, the environment was pretty good back then...and before getting hurt he had one of his best years in awhile. But then he got hurt...which was far from unpredictable. There was a reason nobody really pursued him....the move was a huge risk. The Mets at that time could afford to take risks (something they probably won't be able to do again for awhile)...but its not like him not lasting should have come as a big surprise.

    At least in context of the conversation that was going on about Pagan (who again I think more belongs in a positive category than a negative given what he did prior to joining the Mets) I think there is a difference b/w guys that were just bad moves and ones that unpredictably underperformed. Like to me Frank Francisco stinking and not being worth the money was predictable...it was a bad move. Bay being as bad as he was, was a pretty unpredictable outcome. I don't think the Mets have had THAT many of the latter.

    And we have had a number of players do better than expected over the years...that just doesn't get much attention b/c the team is usually too flawed for it to matter.

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