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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeDirt05 View Post
    All trades for Stanton would require us giving them taveras so no deal
    I assume you'd more than likely be right, so in that case I'd say no as well
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    To say its senseless is ridiculous. You can't have too much offense. Our offense this year was one of the best, but we had PLENTY of games, important games too, where we didn't do **** with the bat. No such thing as too much offense.

    You just named 11 pitchers we have coming up, we will have Waino for probably 5? more years...Pitching is something you want to have, and we have it up the ***. We have so much pitching, we don't have enough spots for all of our pitchers.

    Stanton is much more than just a bat. He's a + defender in right with a rocket arm. Pair him with Tavaras and Jay and we have a + defensive outfield plus a line up comparable to AL teams with pitching coming out the *** still.

    Wacha + Wong/Carpenter/Craig + Martinez could and would be a damn good start for talks to get Stanton (although I'd really like to keep Craig)

    Still have Waino/Miller/Lynn/Kelly/Rosey/Garcia going forward starting pitching wise (assuming Rosey can be a starter at the MLB level, bit assumption I know)

    But that gives us 2 front of the line guys, a damn good 3rd pitcher in Lynn (who I think needs to work on his conditioning, and also I think being put in the Pen hurt him when he was starting in the playoffs) with Kelly/Rosey/Garcia fighting out for the last 2 spots. That leads to a damn good pitching staff with a starting line up comparable to the best of the AL.

    Lets say we give up Wong/Wacha/Martinez plus some further down the line developing players

    Line Up
    Jay-CF
    Tavaras-LF
    Holliday-1B
    Stanton-RF
    Craig-2B
    Freese-3B
    Molina-C
    SS
    P

    Rotation
    Waino
    Miller
    Lynn
    Garcia
    Rosey

    Our 2-6 hitters can all produce 20+ homerun seasons with Stanton pushing 35+ on a yearly basis. That is a ridiculous amount of pop in one line up. 3-5 hitters will all be around .300 hitting with obp .350+ as well. Add in Molina getting better with the bat too...that line up is ****ing sick, we could go out and get a defensive minded short stop and have any offense he produces be gravy.

    Will this happen? No. But to say its senseless is ridiculous
    But can you guarantee all those pitchers will become major league pitchers or wont suffer career effecting injuries? I'll bet you half that list doesn't stay in the majors more than 7 years.

    Only ones who are probably close to a for sure bet on that are Rosenthal, Miller and Wacha. The rest all have possible issues outside kelly. He is just someone who you have to see if his ability progresses.

    But I completely stand by what I said. Adding a great offensive player to an already great offensive team is senseless.

    You win and lose by your pitching depth. I'll hold on to our pitching depth before trading it away for a completely unnecessary player. We have 3 good future outfielders in Jay, Holliday and Tavares. We have a first basemen in Craig. Our rotation might have Wainwright but Im gonna guarantee it till there is a deal in place. We will most likely lose Carpenter after next year, we will for sure lose westbrook. We need pitching depth. there is 11 players on that list. Some will never pan out, some will get hurt and someone on that list like Wainwright, Miller or Rosenthal goes down for a long time and those guys are the replacement.

    Garcia- Many past injuries, shoulder is a death wish.
    Lynn- showed a real lack of mental toughness to end the year

    so that could bring the list to 9. and thats just guys who I can think of at the moment. Then bring in we have guys like Wainwright who could be here long term with past injuries.

    Or we could do like we used to, have no depth by trading it all away and sign guys like Jeff Suppan to come in and pitch again like we did in 2010.

    Like I said. Completely senseless to trade away good young pitchers for offense we don't need. You win with pitching in the post season.

    Also any idea of putting Craig at 2B long term is not going to happen. The guy still gimps around a bit from knee surgery off a broken knee cap. The guy will play a corner outfield spot or first base. If there is an emergency he could probably play third a few innings but he wont be a long term starter at 2B. That idea is over.
    Last edited by Skippy15; 11-16-2012 at 09:36 AM.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    But can you guarantee all those pitchers will become major league pitchers or wont suffer career effecting injuries? I'll bet you half that list doesn't stay in the majors more than 7 years.

    Only ones who are probably close to a for sure bet on that are Rosenthal, Miller and Wacha. The rest all have possible issues outside kelly. He is just someone who you have to see if his ability progresses.

    But I completely stand by what I said. Adding a great offensive player to an already great offensive team is senseless.

    You win and lose by your pitching depth. I'll hold on to our pitching depth before trading it away for a completely unnecessary player. We have 3 good future outfielders in Jay, Holliday and Tavares. We have a first basemen in Craig. Our rotation might have Wainwright but Im gonna guarantee it till there is a deal in place. We will most likely lose Carpenter after next year, we will for sure lose westbrook. We need pitching depth. there is 11 players on that list. Some will never pan out, some will get hurt and someone not on that list like Wainwright, Miller or Rosenthal goes down for a long time and those guys are the replacement.

    Or we could do like we used to, have no depth by trading it all away and sign guys like Jeff Suppan to come in and pitch again like we did in 2010.

    Like I said. Completely senseless to trade away good young pitchers for offense we don't need. You win with pitching in the post season.

    Also any idea of putting Craig at 2B long term is not going to happen. The guy still gimps around a bit from knee surgery off a broken knee cap. The guy will play a corner outfield spot or first base. If there is an emergency he could probably play third a few innings but he wont be a long term starter at 2B. That idea is over.
    Well thats just false. We had 38 games where we scored 2 runs or less, we lost 37 of those games. A good amount of those we lost by 1 run. At the end of the day, you have to score to win the game, making hitting more valuable than pitching. If you can out slug the other team, and still have damn good pitching (like we would) then thats obviously what you do.

    Lynn/Miller/Rosey I say could/would all make good starters for years to come. Put Wainwright into the fold and I think we are setting damn good. Injuries happen, everyone knows that. But if you don't go out and get a KID who has all the potential in the world, who has 93 homeruns during 3 seasons in the bigs (pretty ****ing awesome I might add) and who is becoming a better hitter all around too, who plays excellent defense and could become a future face of the franchise...yea that is NEVER senseless to go after.

    We have PROSPECTS. None of them are guaranteed to amount to anything. Like you said, career threatening injuries could take place. So bringing in a friggin' stud like Stanton for prospects in a position where we have undoubtly crazy amount of depth....It's a no brainer to do that
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Well thats just false. We had 38 games where we scored 2 runs or less, we lost 37 of those games. A good amount of those we lost by 1 run. At the end of the day, you have to score to win the game, making hitting more valuable than pitching. If you can out slug the other team, and still have damn good pitching (like we would) then thats obviously what you do.

    Lynn/Miller/Rosey I say could/would all make good starters for years to come. Put Wainwright into the fold and I think we are setting damn good. Injuries happen, everyone knows that. But if you don't go out and get a KID who has all the potential in the world, who has 93 homeruns during 3 seasons in the bigs (pretty ****ing awesome I might add) and who is becoming a better hitter all around too, who plays excellent defense and could become a future face of the franchise...yea that is NEVER senseless to go after.

    We have PROSPECTS. None of them are guaranteed to amount to anything. Like you said, career threatening injuries could take place. So bringing in a friggin' stud like Stanton for prospects in a position where we have undoubtly crazy amount of depth....It's a no brainer to do that
    If it doesn't cost you a ton of prospects then yes it's a no brainer but it will cost a ton of prospects.

    It's not that I don't want Stanton, I mean who wouldn't? Lol

    But I'm not willing to trade many of the needed pitchers we have.

    Now maybe if we can could centralize a deal around 1 pitcher and then they guys who are going to be good, productive players but not starts I could get on board but its going to take way to much of our pitching to get him. The marlins asking price will be sky high.

    To me it's only a trade that kills our future depth. Would it help our offense? Hell yeah it would. But we will have a great offense. Why trade to make it better and jepordize our pitching?

    Teams with bad pitching don't go anywhere. The mets are a great example. They were playing great baseball the first half but their bullpen was so horribly pathetic that it killed them before they had a chance

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    If it doesn't cost you a ton of prospects then yes it's a no brainer but it will cost a ton of prospects.

    It's not that I don't want Stanton, I mean who wouldn't? Lol

    But I'm not willing to trade many of the needed pitchers we have.

    Now maybe if we can could centralize a deal around 1 pitcher and then they guys who are going to be good, productive players but not starts I could get on board but its going to take way to much of our pitching to get him. The marlins asking price will be sky high.

    To me it's only a trade that kills our future depth. Would it help our offense? Hell yeah it would. But we will have a great offense. Why trade to make it better and jepordize our pitching?

    Teams with bad pitching don't go anywhere. The mets are a great example. They were playing great baseball the first half but their bullpen was so horribly pathetic that it killed them before they had a chance
    How does it jepordize our future? Two studs in Wacha and Martinez. Two pitchers...leaving Miller/Lynn/Rosey/Kelly among others. And also a potential stud in Wong. That does not handicap our future by any means.

    And you can not compare our pitching to that of the Mets. Waino/Miller/Lynn/Garcia/Rosey...thats a pretty legit rotation. Lynn is a solid pitcher, and if Rosey shows he can be a starter, he'd be a pretty solid number 5 and with Kelly in the bullpen who can have spell starts here and there would also be big.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    How does it jepordize our future? Two studs in Wacha and Martinez. Two pitchers...leaving Miller/Lynn/Rosey/Kelly among others. And also a potential stud in Wong. That does not handicap our future by any means.

    And you can not compare our pitching to that of the Mets. Waino/Miller/Lynn/Garcia/Rosey...thats a pretty legit rotation. Lynn is a solid pitcher, and if Rosey shows he can be a starter, he'd be a pretty solid number 5 and with Kelly in the bullpen who can have spell starts here and there would also be big.
    Your making these guys into sure things.

    Garcia, Lynn, Rosenthal, Kelly are all far from sure things in the rotation. Garcia is a huge question mark to his career at this point.

    You can't put Kelly in the pen as a guy getting spot starts. He either needs to be a bullpen arm or a man in the rotation or minors.

    Lynn showed no mental toughness this year and could turn into an undependable starter, Kelly must develop more. Garcia is in jeopardy. Rosenthal needs to have a 3rd pitch to be a starter.

    No one knows what to expect from tyrell Jenkins because hes so young or John Gast. Cleto is a guy with huge potential but I doubt he pans out. He's only on the original list because he's considered a top15 prospect

    Swagerty will be a reliever.

    Your trading 2 of our sure thing pitchers, Wacha a for sure starter and Martinez someone we aren't sure yet but will be an mlb pitcher and good one for an offensive player who is unnecessary and uneeded for a team who will be a top 5 offense.

    We have a ton of potential but not many sure things as quality starters besides miller and Wacha.

    Pitching and depth win you games. You don't trade from a strength to add to a strength, you trade from a strength to add to a weakness. Outfield and offense are strengths here. Our young pitching is a strength. By trading our young pitching you create a possible weakness and all we have done is make a potent offense more potent.

    No one is saying they wouldn't love Stanton but there is just absolutely no point to another bat that will cost that much. It's not neccessary and we would just be adding to a strength.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Your making these guys into sure things.

    Garcia, Lynn, Rosenthal, Kelly are all far from sure things in the rotation. Garcia is a huge question mark to his career at this point.

    You can't put Kelly in the pen as a guy getting spot starts. He either needs to be a bullpen arm or a man in the rotation or minors.

    Lynn showed no mental toughness this year and could turn into an undependable starter, Kelly must develop more. Garcia is in jeopardy. Rosenthal needs to have a 3rd pitch to be a starter.

    No one knows what to expect from tyrell Jenkins because hes so young or John Gast. Cleto is a guy with huge potential but I doubt he pans out. He's only on the original list because he's considered a top15 prospect

    Swagerty will be a reliever.

    Your trading 2 of our sure thing pitchers, Wacha a for sure starter and Martinez someone we aren't sure yet but will be an mlb pitcher and good one for an offensive player who is unnecessary and uneeded for a team who will be a top 5 offense.

    We have a ton of potential but not many sure things as quality starters besides miller and Wacha.

    Pitching and depth win you games. You don't trade from a strength to add to a strength, you trade from a strength to add to a weakness. Outfield and offense are strengths here. Our young pitching is a strength. By trading our young pitching you create a possible weakness and all we have done is make a potent offense more potent.

    No one is saying they wouldn't love Stanton but there is just absolutely no point to another bat that will cost that much. It's not neccessary and we would just be adding to a strength.
    Lol you're saying none of them are sure things, EXCEPT for the 2 to trade. Thats just saying whatever helps prove your point. Lance Lynn just proved he can pitch, and pitch very well in the Majors starting. This was his first year starting, how can you say he hasn't shown any mental toughness? How about going from starting to the bull pen back to starting? I'd say thats pretty awesome mental toughness to come back and pitch well as a starter. He needs to work on his conditioning, no doubt. But he is a solid option for the rotation.

    Waino/Miller/Lynn is a solid top group. Would it stink to lose Wacha? Yes. But gaining a bat like Stanton's, who's is comparable to Holliday's, probably better. Stanton is the kind of player you do this for. He's young, has unlimited potential, can hit the ball a mile, plays good defense and is under team control for the next 4 years. To have a running mate for their careers in Tavaras and Stanton who could both be cornerstones of the team, giving up pitchers (who lets face it, are more of an injury risk than anyone) is totally worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Lol you're saying none of them are sure things, EXCEPT for the 2 to trade. Thats just saying whatever helps prove your point. Lance Lynn just proved he can pitch, and pitch very well in the Majors starting. This was his first year starting, how can you say he hasn't shown any mental toughness? How about going from starting to the bull pen back to starting? I'd say thats pretty awesome mental toughness to come back and pitch well as a starter. He needs to work on his conditioning, no doubt. But he is a solid option for the rotation.

    Waino/Miller/Lynn is a solid top group. Would it stink to lose Wacha? Yes. But gaining a bat like Stanton's, who's is comparable to Holliday's, probably better. Stanton is the kind of player you do this for. He's young, has unlimited potential, can hit the ball a mile, plays good defense and is under team control for the next 4 years. To have a running mate for their careers in Tavaras and Stanton who could both be cornerstones of the team, giving up pitchers (who lets face it, are more of an injury risk than anyone) is totally worth it.
    Of the others who else is a sure thing? And actually I said miller also, that's 3.

    Lynn- proved last season is not mentally tough and he lets things bother him. If he doesn't get that together he will be average at best. Going from when you have pitched from the bullpen 1 year back to starting, which is what he wants is not mental toughness, if anything that's a rejuvenation. How about how in the playoffs twice vs the giants he doesn't get a call and he implodes and becomes unfocused? Or when he did it vs the pirates late in the season just before being removed from the rotation. He's mentally weak and if it doesn't improve he will be very, very average. He also had one of the best run supports in baseball. His record isn't surprising

    Garcia- rotator cuff. Enough said.

    Kelly- solid start but has to progress to stick around in this league as a starter. Has great potential as a dominant reliever but as a starter if he doesn't improve he will be extremely average.

    Tyrell Jenkins- 20 years old. Tons of potential but far from a sure thing, could turn out to be a bust could turn into a star. He's far from a sure thing.

    John Gast - teams best lefty in minors. Got hit hard in AAA. Again, far from sure thing.

    You can't count wainwright till he is signed, that would be like counting on Pujols to man first base in 2012.

    We have 3 pitching prospects who if they don't get hurt will for sure be mlb players

    Miller
    Wacha
    Martinez

    Wacha and Miller are guaranteed starters here. Martinez could be but I question if his mechanics allow him to be. But he's already got the pitching ability to get MLB players out. Those 3 are completely untouchable.

    Now if they wanna work out a deal that's more centered around Lynn or the other guys that's different. But giving them any of those 3 is not an option. They are to valuable. Far to valuable to trade for more offense on a team that's already a top offensive team

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Of the others who else is a sure thing? And actually I said miller also, that's 3.

    Lynn- proved last season is not mentally tough and he lets things bother him. If he doesn't get that together he will be average at best. Going from when you have pitched from the bullpen 1 year back to starting, which is what he wants is not mental toughness, if anything that's a rejuvenation. How about how in the playoffs twice vs the giants he doesn't get a call and he implodes and becomes unfocused? Or when he did it vs the pirates late in the season just before being removed from the rotation. He's mentally weak and if it doesn't improve he will be very, very average. He also had one of the best run supports in baseball. His record isn't surprising

    Garcia- rotator cuff. Enough said.

    Kelly- solid start but has to progress to stick around in this league as a starter. Has great potential as a dominant reliever but as a starter if he doesn't improve he will be extremely average.

    Tyrell Jenkins- 20 years old. Tons of potential but far from a sure thing, could turn out to be a bust could turn into a star. He's far from a sure thing.

    John Gast - teams best lefty in minors. Got hit hard in AAA. Again, far from sure thing.

    You can't count wainwright till he is signed, that would be like counting on Pujols to man first base in 2012.

    We have 3 pitching prospects who if they don't get hurt will for sure be mlb players

    Miller
    Wacha
    Martinez

    Wacha and Miller are guaranteed starters here. Martinez could be but I question if his mechanics allow him to be. But he's already got the pitching ability to get MLB players out. Those 3 are completely untouchable.

    Now if they wanna work out a deal that's more centered around Lynn or the other guys that's different. But giving them any of those 3 is not an option. They are to valuable. Far to valuable to trade for more offense on a team that's already a top offensive team
    I guess we see it differently. I see Stanton as more than more offense. I see him making the whole team better
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    I guess we see it differently. I see Stanton as more than more offense. I see him making the whole team better
    He does. He makes the defense better to but not hugely because it involves moving Holliday to first and Craig second. Craig will be bad at 2B no question, Holliday should handle first fine. And I would love to have Stanton but I see it as a log jam of hitters who play the same position and losing to much pitching.

    Unless the NL adds a DH this off season

    But we aren't gonna agree on this. Should we keep going on this and keep taking up the thread or do you wanna just agree that we aren't gonna agree lol

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    I would hate to have Craig play 2b for any stretch of more than an inning or two. I don't want a plus fielding and plus hitting right fielder if it means we have a defensive liability at second base.

    I like the idea of improving the offense, but only at second and shortstop. That was our hole last year. It would be nice to have someone with some pop at second base. I like furcal at shortstop for another year. At least he has reliable defense and a great arm. I'm open to any upgrades there though.

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    I think carpenter at 2B can provide 10-15 home runs in a full season.mlots of doubles. Question is how good a defender can he be? I think he can be average at least after some time. He's more athletic than Craig and Schumacker IMO.

    As far as furcal he's fine for a year if his elbow holds up.

    It's doing good they said today. They need to make a trade or sign a free agent though, someone who at the least can play extended stretches there

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    Id like to see bartlett or scutaro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stlfan544 View Post
    Id like to see bartlett or scutaro.

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    I'd love them but don't see Scutaro, he will get an over payment because of last years World Series

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