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  1. #211
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    yeah miller wont be included in any deal from here on out

  2. #212
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    He showed to much ability after a bad start and then really got it going. Pitched very well in mlb during call up

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Sure. No problem.

    Career averages and 2012 totals for some

    Andrus: ( 4years)

    .275 BA. Career - .342 OBP career - 21 stolen bases in 2012. caught stealing 10 - 31 doubles in 2012 - 9 triples 2012 - 3 homers- 43 XBHs - 57 walks and 97 Ks

    2012 WAR: 3.5 (4.0 in 2011)

    He's an okay base stealer but not phenomenal. He's an extremely good player.

    Cabrera: 6 years

    .279 batting average - .342 OBO career - 9 stolen bases 2012 and 4 caught stealing - 35 doubles - 1 triple - 16 home runs - 52 XBHs - 52 walks - 99 Ks

    As you can see batting is extremely similar. Andrus much faster. Cabrera much more power.

    WAR(2012):

    Andrus:

    3.5


    Cabrera

    3.0

    Contracts:

    Andrus:

    2013: 4,500,000
    2014: 6,500,000

    Cabrera:

    2013: 6,500,000
    2014: 10,000,000

    Clear advantage on this for Andrus.

    But I'm not worried about contract, we got some free payroll.

    But Texas isn't an active seller on Andrus. There's some interest but not a ton. Cabrera on the other hand Cleveland wants to trade.

    Plus I feel like we can get Cabrera cheaper. Their production is a wash. Contract and age favors Andrus by about 2 years. Amount needed to get player favors Cabrera.

    Don't get me wrong if it got announced today that we got Andrus I'd be ecstatic but if I had a pick I'd take Cabrera because of the power in his bat from a position that lacks power across te board, he will take less to acquire and I feel like we can re sign him much easier where I feel like Andrus will test free agency at an earlier age (26) vs Cabrera (29) making him much more and maybe impossible to keep where Cabrera could be keepable long term
    While yes, it'd cost more to get Andrus...it'd be worth it. He's a better player, younger, and cheaper. He'll be 26 when his contract is up and prime to get a nice new one that'll end when he's around 33-35 getting us his best production for the amount of money we'd give him, which will probably be around the 11-13 mil a year, be a bit of a bargin.

    While career wise they have the same numbers, Andrus is still getting better, and will probably be better next year. We don't need power in the line up. We have a ton of it. We need a speed guy like Andrus in it. A guy who can take that extra base when we need it.

    And defensively, its not close. Andrus is a better defender. I'd give up more to get him
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    While yes, it'd cost more to get Andrus...it'd be worth it. He's a better player, younger, and cheaper. He'll be 26 when his contract is up and prime to get a nice new one that'll end when he's around 33-35 getting us his best production for the amount of money we'd give him, which will probably be around the 11-13 mil a year, be a bit of a bargin.

    While career wise they have the same numbers, Andrus is still getting better, and will probably be better next year. We don't need power in the line up. We have a ton of it. We need a speed guy like Andrus in it. A guy who can take that extra base when we need it.

    And defensively, its not close. Andrus is a much, much better defender. I'd give up to get him
    That's fine. I wouldn't. I'm not in love with Andrus. And I have high doubts of any chance of resigning him no matter what. He will be asking for an extremely big contract

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    That's fine. I wouldn't. I'm not in love with Andrus. And I have high doubts of any chance of resigning him no matter what. He will be asking for an extremely big contract
    Unless he goes insane these next couple years, he has nothing backing up him asking for an extremely big contract. He's not a masher, he's not a high average guy. There is nothing supporting what you are saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    While yes, it'd cost more to get Andrus...it'd be worth it. He's a better player, younger, and cheaper. He'll be 26 when his contract is up and prime to get a nice new one that'll end when he's around 33-35 getting us his best production for the amount of money we'd give him, which will probably be around the 11-13 mil a year, be a bit of a bargin.

    While career wise they have the same numbers, Andrus is still getting better, and will probably be better next year. We don't need power in the line up. We have a ton of it. We need a speed guy like Andrus in it. A guy who can take that extra base when we need it.

    And defensively, its not close. Andrus is a better defender. I'd give up more to get him
    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Unless he goes insane these next couple years, he has nothing backing up him asking for an extremely big contract. He's not a masher, he's not a high average guy. There is nothing supporting what you are saying.
    You've just supported what I'm saying.

    7-9 years at 77 to 113 million million dollars isn't a extremely big contract? And that's just your numbers, not the actual numbers that could be there. He could very well end up in the 13-16 million dollar range
    We've only signed 2 players to larger contracts. Albert Pujols and Matt Holliday. This could surpass Pujols

    We aren't a big market team who just signs players for 100 million dollars for the hell of it

    For the cardinals what you just described is an extremely large contract. Especially for someone who isn't a power hitter, almost no power, isn't a great base stealer, plays great defense and doesn't have a great OBP. And we are taking a huge risk signing him 7-9 years because on injury.

    In what way is that not an extremely large contract for someone with his skill set for a medium market team
    Last edited by Skippy15; 11-08-2012 at 12:46 PM.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    You've just supported what I'm saying.

    7-9 years at 77 to 113 million million dollars isn't a extremely big contract? And that's just your numbers, not the actual numbers that could be there. He could very well end up in the 13-16 million dollar range
    We've only signed 2 players to larger contracts. Albert Pujols and Matt Holliday. This could surpass Pujols

    We aren't a big market team who just signs players for 100 million dollars for the hell of it

    For the cardinals what you just described is an extremely large contract. Especially for someone who isn't a power hitter, almost no power, isn't a great base stealer, plays great defense and doesn't have a great OBP. And we are taking a huge risk signing him 7-9 years because on injury.

    In what way is that not an extremely large contract for someone with his skill set for a medium market team
    I understand we aren't a team to shell out 100 million dollar contracts. I could honestly see a 6-8 year 72-96 million dollar contract. He's not going to command more than that for the pure fact he isn't exactly a game changer, and if he is....well...wouldn't you want to give him that money then? So again, your logic fails. You keep guys around like that, and if he's playing to where he deserves that kind of money, then **** yea you keep im and give it to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    I understand we aren't a team to shell out 100 million dollar contracts. I could honestly see a 6-8 year 72-96 million dollar contract. He's not going to command more than that for the pure fact he isn't exactly a game changer, and if he is....well...wouldn't you want to give him that money then? So again, your logic fails. You keep guys around like that, and if he's playing to where he deserves that kind of money, then **** yea you keep im and give it to him.
    Your the one talking about giving 96 million to a guy who isn't a game changer? Okay pal, my logic fails

    Also I used your numbers. First by your numbers he could get a max 113 million. Then you change it to he won't get more than 96. So which is it? Your either flipping your earlier numbers or your trying to change it so it doesn't sound as overpaying.

    It's one thing to over pay him if your signing him 2 years. No long term risk. Not 7-9 (your numbers). Huge risk.

    Also no chance of getting him at discounted rate. He is a Boras client. He's gonna go out and look for the biggest contract possible and with teams like the Yankees and Red Sox in need of future shortstops the price war will be big
    Last edited by Skippy15; 11-08-2012 at 02:42 PM.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    Your the one talking about giving 96 million to a guy who isn't a game changer? Okay pal, my logic fails

    Also I used your numbers. First by your numbers he could get a max 113 million. Then you change it to he won't get more than 96. So which is it? Your either flipping your earlier numbers or your trying to change it so it doesn't sound as overpaying.

    It's one thing to over pay him if your signing him 2 years. No long term risk. Not 7-9 (your numbers). Huge risk.

    Also no chance of getting him at discounted rate. He is a Boras client. He's gonna go out and look for the biggest contract possible and with teams like the Yankees and Red Sox in need of future shortstops the price war will be big
    St. Louis has a good track record with Boras clients if I'm remembering correctly.

    When I say game changer, I mean Holliday, Pujols, Fielder, Cabrara(sp) those type of players, you know, the ones who get those 100+ contracts. When I through out numbers, those were more or less high end numbers, the lesser number being the better deal for the Cardinals obviously.

    We are not a team that has to overspend to bring FA's in. Those teams are the ones who either want no one else around to even worry about (Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers) or teams that are notorious losers (Baltimore, Brewers, Indians, Cubs, Nationals). Teams like the Cardinals who are notorious winners with an amazing fan base, don't have to over pay to bring in/keep players. If we were to trade for Andrus, it'd almost be guaranteed he'd love it here. I really haven't heard anyone say they didn't like it in St. Louis. Am I saying discount? Not at all. But we would not have to shed out a **** ton of money to keep him. You pay him what he's worth, possibly a slight bit more, and thats right in that 11-13 million dollar range for 6-8 years. No way he gets 8+ years any where btw. 8 year 104 Million dollar contract would be the absolute high for a player like this, and that would be a damn good deal for him as well. And if the Cardinals are willing to pay that kind of money for a player, you bet your *** he's the kind of player you want to keep around.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    St. Louis has a good track record with Boras clients if I'm remembering correctly.

    When I say game changer, I mean Holliday, Pujols, Fielder, Cabrara(sp) those type of players, you know, the ones who get those 100+ contracts. When I through out numbers, those were more or less high end numbers, the lesser number being the better deal for the Cardinals obviously.

    We are not a team that has to overspend to bring FA's in. Those teams are the ones who either want no one else around to even worry about (Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers) or teams that are notorious losers (Baltimore, Brewers, Indians, Cubs, Nationals). Teams like the Cardinals who are notorious winners with an amazing fan base, don't have to over pay to bring in/keep players. If we were to trade for Andrus, it'd almost be guaranteed he'd love it here. I really haven't heard anyone say they didn't like it in St. Louis. Am I saying discount? Not at all. But we would not have to shed out a **** ton of money to keep him. You pay him what he's worth, possibly a slight bit more, and thats right in that 11-13 million dollar range for 6-8 years. No way he gets 8+ years any where btw. 8 year 104 Million dollar contract would be the absolute high for a player like this, and that would be a damn good deal for him as well. And if the Cardinals are willing to pay that kind of money for a player, you bet your *** he's the kind of player you want to keep around.
    I'm going completely off you said till he's 33-35. There's no way in hell I would take him to 35 on 1 contract.

    If we could work out something like 5 years/55 million that would be great. But I don't believe in signing players like him, who aren't game changers to near that big a contract and I don't believe the cardinals owners do either

    But teams like the Yankees and redsox do, if they have to.


    That said,if we brought him in and he signed an extension at a fair but reasonable time rate then I'd be great with that but I don't think that's possible with boras wanting to get as much as possible, the Yankees and Red Sox pushing up money and years.

    I don't believe we can resign him when other teams like that will be involved and pushing it farther than our owner will go. And I'm not interested in keeping him at anything like 8 years. Players like him come and go with their legs. Jose Reyes and jimmy Rollins are great examples. A few lower body injuries and they are still productive player but what if we sign Andrus say, 7 years and he goes down hard and messes up a knee? His speed will be effected and he doesn't have the power and on base ability to make him near as valuable like Pujols or Holliday

    That's the whole reason I take Cabrera over him. I don't like signing those kind of players long term and Cabrera would be a 3-4 year extension, I don't see Andrus less than 6

  11. #221
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    I totally get where your coming from. He's a great player id love to have.

    But at the same time i hope you see where im coming from. I don't trust these kind of players because if they lose their lower bodies its all over and with signing a guy that long it's dangerous

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    I totally get where your coming from. He's a great player id love to have.

    But at the same time i hope you see where im coming from. I don't trust these kind of players because if they lose their lower bodies its all over and with signing a guy that long it's dangerous
    Oh I understand where you're coming from, I just think its less of a risk than you do. I think players like to stay here.
    Quote Originally Posted by heimdog8 View Post
    I didn't want to throw this information out here. I was a 3 year varsity starter at QB in high school. I played quarterback in junior college as well. I was considering playing division 1 football as well but chose to pursue my career in business instead. However, currently I am helping train with Derek Carr from Fresno State get ready for his pro day and the draft. I am also working with Cody Kessler, the USC quarterback.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Oh I understand where you're coming from, I just think its less of a risk than you do. I think players like to stay here.
    I completely agree players love to stay here and it makes sense. You'll always be competitive for a World Series and who doesn't warrant to play in front of 42,000 every single night?

    But after seeing a guy like Jose Reyes who is a somewhat similar player, I have great fear of signing any shortstop who relies on being very fast and lower body to be a threat offensively.

    I would love Andrus but at 4-5 years. Not 6-7. But Definately feel like other teams will make it push up to much for him to stay unless we push up. He won't accept 5 years over 8 anywhere unless the money here is a ton better

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippy15 View Post
    I completely agree players love to stay here and it makes sense. You'll always be competitive for a World Series and who doesn't warrant to play in front of 42,000 every single night?

    But after seeing a guy like Jose Reyes who is a somewhat similar player, I have great fear of signing any shortstop who relies on being very fast and lower body to be a threat offensively.

    I would love Andrus but at 4-5 years. Not 6-7. But Definately feel like other teams will make it push up to much for him to stay unless we push up. He won't accept 5 years over 8 anywhere unless the money here is a ton better
    Dont speed guys tend to age better? Isnt that the theory? Being prone to injury is either luck or genetics or wrong conditioning program...

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teufelshunde4 View Post
    Dont speed guys tend to age better? Isnt that the theory? Being prone to injury is either luck or genetics or wrong conditioning program...
    Not really. Their legs is what it's all about and for many they start losing it later in their careers

    The difference is speed guys slow down and power hitters lose power. The power loss just is more noticeable. A guy hitting 30 homers a year will show pretty easily when he starts hitting 20 a year, Pujols is a great example. 35 homers a year was a given, not anymore.

    But aging isn't the issue with Andrus. It's 1 bad injury or developing of leg issues and Andrus could he half the player he is now.

    Jose Reyes is an example of this. He's constantly having hamstring issues and other lower body issues.

    If Andrus loses ability in his legs at all he's an average player. His defense will go way down, his doubles and triples will go way down, he's already not great on base guy. Very solid but not great and he has no real power.

    I'd love having him but he's an extremely risky player to sign long term IMO because one injury can make it a horrible, horrible contract

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