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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    Amanti Edwards was a TERRIBLE trade at the time and has gotten nothing but worse. He IS NOT going to be worth the 33rd pick in the draft ever. Any arguement you can make loses a lot of credibility by supporting that trade. Especially where you say it may still work out. No it won't. Sorry. Louis Murphy is your answer at WR? I'm sorry but again that's not enough. This team just needed a couple guys that can run routes. Robert Meachem, Eddie Royal, Jericho Cochetry and even Plaxico would have made more sense than Lou Murph IMO.

    Everett Brown wasn't a bad move and Otah just got unlucky. Obviously I was wrong about Clausen. My bad, that wasn't really a bad trade. Not sure why I thought they traded for him. I can admit I'm wrong. Lets see if you can with your Amanti support.

    More evidence the GM should be fired is having 2 RB's that now seem below average to average at best on the roster taking up about $12-$14 million in cap space. You mention the Tolbert signing. I like him. Probably the best back on the team. However you say they got him on a budget. Not true, he got a nice chunk of cash...especially for a FB.

    You bring up a bunch of "guys" the team signed this offseason. Sure some of those guys are OK, but they are just "guys". Having all that money tied up in average RB's and then spending big on another really killed any momentum this team could have created going into this offseason. How much better would Vincent Jackson and Carl Nicks look on this team rather than Stewart, Tolbert and all those "guys" you mentioned look?

    The 2nd sentence in my post said you might as well let the coaching staff have this year, so I don't know why ripped me so bad about saying the coaching staff should "probably" be fired. The team is 1-5, they probably do.
    I definitely agree about the Armanti pick. Even if we had won the Super Bowl in 2010, Armanti wouldn't have been worth the 64th overall pick. He could've been drafted in the fourth and we'd have given up a lesser pick. I don't have much hopes for him, but I also can't judge him based on Hurney's stupid decision to give up a high pick for him.

    As far as Murphey, outside of a couple of bad drops, he's been pretty awesome depth, and outside of Eddie Royal, none of those players would've been any better than Murphey (who was pretty costless-- 7th rounder). But like you said, he isn't a #2, just a slot guy for the most part. LaFell is showing strides, so I don't know that dropping a $60M contract on a WR was a good idea either, however Nicks would've been great for this team and we wouldn't have had to worry about him being against us in the division.

    Everette Brown was a terrible move considering he didn't fit our scheme whatsoever. Otah while it was somewhat unlucky that he had injuries, he was also a fat slob who couldn't stay in shape.

    In regards to the HBs money situation, I agree and disagree in parts. It's not Hurney's fault that the HB's aren't working; the OC is calling terrible run plays that don't benefit our HBs. If we were running some power-run plays I'd have no problem with the money Stewart and Williams got. I do however wish we hadn't brought in Tolbert, considering he isn't used at FB very often, doesn't help the passing game much, crowds the back-field (even more than before), and could've gotten a cheaper FB.

    I'm not positive on how much Nicks was paid, or how much our FA's were paid, but if I knew we were going to abandon the run I would've preferred we dropped Williams' contract, not signed Tolbert, and instead picked up Nicks. We could've won the TB and SEA games with better OL play, that would have us at 3-3 at least. I'm not for overpaying in FA so at the time I was content not spending a ton of money.

    With Hurney out as GM, we could potentially see the new GM find ways to kill a few contracts (Gamble, Beason, and Williams all have big contracts and are going to be coming off of injuries or underperforming seasons), then opt to sign big names in FA, not that it would necessarily be better.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    It sounds like you are OK with a bad team with the way you ripped apart my post. You defend the coaching staff and the GM yet the team is 1-5 and finds new and creative ways to lose every week. Is there SOME talent? Of course. Even the Chiefs and Jaguars have talent. Since you ripped apart my post so bad I will point out a couple horrible points you made.
    Of course I'm not okay with a bad team. I am okay with a good team that is a few pieces (and injuries) away from being great. I defend Rivera because I don't think 1 year and 6 games is enough time to turn a 2-14 team around. I defend Chud because of what he did last year and I pray that he returns to that form. I don't know that all the assistant coaches need to be fired either, but there's much less visibility there.

    I defend Hurney because we act like we expect him to not only hit on every single pick ever, but also to foresee that a guy like Otah or Morgan, etc., will have their career ended early by injuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    Amanti Edwards was a TERRIBLE trade at the time and has gotten nothing but worse. He IS NOT going to be worth the 33rd pick in the draft ever. Any arguement you can make loses a lot of credibility by supporting that trade. Especially where you say it may still work out. No it won't. Sorry. Louis Murphy is your answer at WR? I'm sorry but again that's not enough. This team just needed a couple guys that can run routes. Robert Meachem, Eddie Royal, Jericho Cochetry and even Plaxico would have made more sense than Lou Murph IMO.

    Everett Brown wasn't a bad move and Otah just got unlucky. Obviously I was wrong about Clausen. My bad, that wasn't really a bad trade. Not sure why I thought they traded for him. I can admit I'm wrong. Lets see if you can with your Amanti support.
    Armanti Edwards was a risky move at the time that has proven to be a bad one. Do I think he was worth it at the time? No. But I can certainly see where someone might have thought that. You can keep saying he won't ever be worth the 33rd pick, but that's irrelevant because it assumes Hurney could see the future; Manbearchef has the correct argument: he's unlikely to ever be worth even the 64th pick. I hope he proves us wrong, I sincerely do, but I don't think that will happen. He would have been a terrific 5th-6th round pick.

    I had to go back and check my post because I did not say that Murphy was the answer at WR; I said they brought someone in to compete. None of the other FA WRs (except VJax) would have been any better. To be honest, I was annoyed that they brought Murphy in. I thought we had enough talent for Newton to throw to that we didn't need to go out and get Murphy. That said, saying that they made no moves was simply wrong, that's all I was getting at.

    I will not say that I'm wrong about my Armanti support. I truly hope he develops into the player he can be. I stated that I thought the trade was a risk, but it could have worked out and still might. That's very much the case. It was basically an all-or-nothing trade. So far, we've gotten nothing, but if he was in Pro Bowl form right now, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    More evidence the GM should be fired is having 2 RB's that now seem below average to average at best on the roster taking up about $12-$14 million in cap space. You mention the Tolbert signing. I like him. Probably the best back on the team. However you say they got him on a budget. Not true, he got a nice chunk of cash...especially for a FB.
    That's not a problem if the coaching staff is using them properly and they're putting up 750+ yards each. Or 1100+ yards each. With an unproven rookie QB. And only 1 WR. Without context, looking solely at their performance this year, it's easy to say that was dumb, but they were smart signings at the time. It's not Hurney's fault that Chud doesn't know how to call or design a running play.

    No way Tolbert is the best back on the team. I can actually believe the other things you're saying, but that's got to be a joke. $2.1m/yr is expensive for a fullback, but not for the hybrid guy they want him to be. Personally, I would have preferred a blocking fullback, but that doesn't really fit the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    You bring up a bunch of "guys" the team signed this offseason. Sure some of those guys are OK, but they are just "guys". Having all that money tied up in average RB's and then spending big on another really killed any momentum this team could have created going into this offseason. How much better would Vincent Jackson and Carl Nicks look on this team rather than Stewart, Tolbert and all those "guys" you mentioned look?

    The 2nd sentence in my post said you might as well let the coaching staff have this year, so I don't know why ripped me so bad about saying the coaching staff should "probably" be fired. The team is 1-5, they probably do.
    How about having all that money tied up in the best running back duo in the league when they're used properly? There aren't many backs better than Williams or Stewart. Adrian Peterson, Arian Foster, ...... I'd put both our RBs at the level of Forte/Gore/McCoy/Rice if they were being used as workhorse backs. Last year, they were at the top of the league in YPC.

    VJax would have looked great. In the off-season, I was really hoping we'd bring him in -- he's the kind of big-bodied guy that Chud likes and he came from SD, it seemed logical he'd end up here. Carl Nicks wouldn't have made much of a difference, frankly. Maybe if Chud would call better running plays...

    I understand that many of the "guys" that were brought in aren't big names. That's not JR's style. Frankly, if they had been brought in and flopped, we'd still be *****ing and moaning, complaining about how we tied up so much money on someone who was "clearly" past their prime. All I meant with listing those "guys" is that it's simply inaccurate to say that no moves were made. Plenty of moves were made, they just weren't the ones YOU wanted to see. That goes all the way up to the top, it doesn't end at Hurney; that's the way JR approaches the game -- build through the draft and keep the talent you develop.


    And, Manbearchef, I really hope we don't get a GM who suddenly decides to drop all the talent that's here and sign big name FAs. That said, I really hope guys are willing to rework their contracts -- Beason in his second year on IR, Williams getting older and not used as often.

    I'm not sure we'll even go after a new GM right away (though there are signs that we will). If not, JR better have someone who knows how to talk players out of wildly expensive contracts.
    Last edited by N.E.PanthersFan; 10-24-2012 at 10:50 PM.

  3. #18
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    There was a lot to read there! I can't really say either of us are wrong. We are just stating opinions. I'll try to dig up the post I made before the season started where I said something like this team could be a contender if they made the right moves. I said before the season I didn't think they did. I don't really think they needed to make huge moves and you make a good point about Nicks. The thing that bothered me is I know most players in the league that are worth a **** and the team didn't really pick up anyone I knew. I had heard of all the guys, but it's not like team really brought in anyone who had ever made an impact in the league.

    I think Tolbert got more money than 2.1 million per but if that is all I take back my statement. I don't take back my statement about him being the best back on the team. Stewart has shown promise but never lived up to the hype. Williams hasn't been the same guy for a couple years. I am with you 100% about the team not calling the right plays. With the RB's they have they should run at least 60% of the time. Maybe the RB's would be effective in a power running game. Cam and the O-Line would certainly benefit from that. I do think the GM should have known better and started to build team around Cam and the passing game.

    What disappointed me the most was only adding Louis Murphy and hoping the rest of the WR's would pan out. I wouldn't have had so much faith and would have brought in a couple veterans, one of which being a big body. I know Murphy's game pretty well and I had a feeling he wouldn't be a great fit. I think Lefell and Murphy are #4 and #5 type guys. I would have like to see the team add a 2 and 3. Even if it was just Royal and Plaxico. Worst case is those guys stink it up get cut and they have the same WR's as now. If the team is going to commit to the passing game then bring in WR's.

    The thing that I find interesting is that it is obvious someone had to go and yet you seem to support both. All your points about the players not fitting the coaches system prove that. I'm fine with the GM going if he's not bringing in players that fit the coaches system. That is probably the most important part of being a GM. I have no problem keeping the coaches if they can turn it around. I just don't see it. I think the play calling is awful and it seems like you do to. The play call against Seattle on 4th down to lose the game was one of the worst I have seen. It also did not fit the personnel at all. I don't think we disagree as much as I did, but I am a bit confused as to what you think the problem is. It's clear you agree there is a problem.
    Last edited by Cracka2HI!; 10-25-2012 at 01:09 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    There was a lot to read there! I can't really say either of us are wrong. We are just stating opinions. I'll try to dig up the post I made before the season started where I said something like this team could be a contender if they made the right moves. I said before the season I didn't think they did. I don't really think they needed to make huge moves and you make a good point about Nicks. The thing that bothered me is I know most players in the league that are worth a **** and the team didn't really pick up anyone I knew. I had heard of all the guys, but it's not like team really brought in anyone who had ever made an impact in the league.

    I think Tolbert got more money than 2.1 million per but if that is all I take back my statement. I don't take back my statement about him being the best back on the team. Stewart has shown promise but never lived up to the hype. Williams hasn't been the same guy for a couple years. I am with you 100% about the team not calling the right plays. With the RB's they have they should run at least 60% of the time. Maybe the RB's would be effective in a power running game. Cam and the O-Line would certainly benefit from that. I do think the GM should have known better and started to build team around Cam and the passing game.

    What disappointed me the most was only adding Louis Murphy and hoping the rest of the WR's would pan out. I wouldn't have had so much faith and would have brought in a couple veterans, one of which being a big body. I know Murphy's game pretty well and I had a feeling he wouldn't be a great fit. I think Lefell and Murphy are #4 and #5 type guys. I would have like to see the team add a 2 and 3. Even if it was just Royal and Plaxico. Worst case is those guys stink it up get cut and they have the same WR's as now. If the team is going to commit to the passing game then bring in WR's.

    The thing that I find interesting is that it is obvious someone had to go and yet you seem to support both. All your points about the players not fitting the coaches system prove that. I'm fine with the GM going if he's not bringing in players that fit the coaches system. That is probably the most important part of being a GM. I have no problem keeping the coaches if they can turn it around. I just don't see it. I think the play calling is awful and it seems like you do to. The play call against Seattle on 4th down to lose the game was one of the worst I have seen. It also did not fit the personnel at all. I don't think we disagree as much as I did, but I am a bit confused as to what you think the problem is. It's clear you agree there is a problem.
    I wouldn't have written so much if I didn't think it was a discussion worth having, for whatever that's worth.

    I agree that we are very close to being contenders. I would have made some different decisions than the FO too, but I don't think they made absolutely horrible decisions. I understand that you (and many fans, no doubt) want to bring in players who have made an impact elsewhere, but that's generally expensive and it's not the way this team has really ever operated -- Stephen Davis, Keyshawn Johnson would be notable exceptions, but can you think of any others (besides our initial team)?

    I think there was a major disconnect between the type of game the coaches are calling and the players we had, but I think there are multiple parts to that. The first part is that a lot of these players were here before Rivera and Co. took over. JR and Hurney are both fiercely loyal to players who are loyal to the organization, perhaps to a fault, but that's why we signed our core players long-term. Some of them aren't fits for the current system, but that works both ways: the GM needs to bring in players who ARE a good fit and the coaching staff needs to bend the system to fit the players who ARE here.

    Hurney and Rivera had two drafts together. The first, they went out and got Newton, they tried to get some DT talent and missed horribly, they took a couple risks on guys who were coming off injuries but otherwise would have gone higher (Hogan, who's still injured, and Pilares, who is explosive and has a lot more potential than anyone would know with how little he sees the field offensively), and a few uninspiring players later in the draft. They did a lot better this year, picking up players who would basically fit any system.

    Looking at non-draft moves, Hurney tried to bring in players that fit, both offensively and defensively. The biggest one was obviously Olsen, but if guys like Tolbert, Naanee, and Nakamura weren't brought in at the behest of Rivera, I'd be shocked.

    I think, also, that signing Williams and Stewart long-term were reflective not just of past investment, but also of protecting Newton while he's young so he doesn't have to carry the team. I'm not sure why Chud doesn't understand that.

    Honestly, yes, some kind of shake-up had to happen. I would have started by cutting McDermott loose and having Rivera take over the defense. I would have found a guy who actually knows how to design and call run plays and brought him in as Assistant Offensive Coordinator to light a fire under Chud's ***. I would have waited on the Hurney decision until the end of the season, but there's no denying that it sends a very strong message.

    I guess the problem I have with it is that it's unjust. I have a hard time blaming Hurney for our CBs playing ~8 yards off the WRs and our safeties playing ~15 yards off the LoS. I have a hard time blaming Hurney for rushing 4 DL straight ahead and expecting to get pressure on opposing QBs. I have a hard time blaming Hurney for the ineptitude of the play-calling on offense this year (where the truly surprising part is HOW DIFFERENT it is from last year's play-calling).

    So, yeah, I guess that's what I think the problem is. I truly don't think it's a talent issue. I mean, the pieces that are missing (imo) are a starting RT, OL depth, an imposing presence at DT, and maybe a safety (I'd consider moving Godfrey to FS if we found a solid SS). Talent-wise, we're not far off. I think that our moves in this draft were mostly appropriate (at least until round 7), and I think our moves last draft were well-intentioned and that they targeted areas that needed improvement.

    Put another way, if we were playing offense this year the way we played last year, what would our record be? If we lined up with a TE and FB and ran the ball 35 times a game, what would our record be? If we still took shots deep to Smith, what would our record be? I'm putting a lot of it on Chud because there are examples from last year of our offense working. McDermott is worse, I just don't have any examples of what his defense working correctly would look like.

  5. #20
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    IMO, the only way McDermott will succeed is if he has a top 5 DL. That's literally the only way. When you only see four-man rushes you have to have more than one solid DL. Johnson is taking a lot of flack for being so well paid, but not having the stats, but people don't realize how much he actually does. He's always going to be compared to Peppers, but IMO he's better, considering how often Peppers took breaks. If Peppers were still here McDermott's defense could probably work, since you can't double up on two players and consistently stop the DL.

  6. #21
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    Huh, below average or average? Stewart and Williams are both better than average. they are just in the wrong style of offense. The only back out there that I consider better is AP. He's like a combo of the two.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.E.PanthersFan View Post
    I wouldn't have written so much if I didn't think it was a discussion worth having, for whatever that's worth.
    Thanks man! I agree, this is a good conversation. Best I've I had on this site in a long time and the best I've had about the Panthers. This has always been such an inactive forum that I ignore it. Even if it's just a 3 man conversation with manbearchef it looks like we have a lot of good opinions here now!

    Very good post! I see your point of view clearly and it makes sense. I am normally a big picture fan. I think I'll eat a little crow on this one. I couldn't see the whole picture. It seemed like the team was so close that it should have been easy to take the next step. That is probably never the case. I am normally not foolish enough to think I know better than the pros. On the surface it does look like a very poor job has been done here. That goes for the front office and the coaching staff.

    I still maintain that Hurney and the coaches have performed poorly. I am inclined to see your point however. I think smaller moves like replacing the coordinators might have been a better path. I hadn't considered that. You made a good point about Rivera taking over a 2-14 team. I do wish the team somehow took strides on offense to fit what they wanted to do. I had no problem with the Hurney firing because of that. Its clear he's an easy scapegoat. The problem could have been much smaller than that. The play calling on both sides of the ball is probably the most noticeable flaw. I have to admit the GM is not the best person to blame for that.
    Last edited by Cracka2HI!; 10-26-2012 at 01:47 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    This has always been such an inactive forum that I ignore it.
    I'm always willing to talk Panthers (or Steelers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    I couldn't see the whole picture. It seemed like the team was so close that it should have been easy to take the next step. That is probably never the case. I am normally not foolish enough to think I know better than the pros. On the surface it does look like a very poor job has been done here. That goes for the front office and the coaching staff.
    I'm sure I'm not seeing the *whole* picture, but the play-calling is the one thing that's been driving me insane all year (and last year too on defense). I tend to have a lot of faith that professional coaches and scouts and GMs, etc., have more experience and have more information at their disposal than I do. (It's the same way I approach politics and it's why I have a hard time criticizing any president on foreign policy.)

    We really are close as a team, but losing is a really, really hard funk to get out of. That said, I don't think the players have been put in the best position, but, again, I think that's because of the play-calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka2HI! View Post
    I still maintain that Hurney and the coaches have performed poorly. I am inclined to see your point however. I think smaller moves like replacing the coordinators might have been a better path. I hadn't considered that. You made a good point about Rivera taking over a 2-14 team. I do wish the team somehow took strides on offense to fit what they wanted to do. I had no problem with the Hurney firing because of that. Its clear he's an easy scapegoat. The problem could have been much smaller than that. The play calling on both sides of the ball is probably the most noticeable flaw. I have to admit the GM is not the best person to blame for that.
    There's no doubt that the FO and the coaching staff could be doing better. If that wasn't the case, we'd -- at the very least -- have a winning record. Frankly, the part that bothers me most about firing Hurney is what that means for the roster moving forward. Does the next guy completely clear house? I mean, there's a ton of talent already here, it would be a shame if they saw this team as needing to start from square one. Granted, that should get the players to work even harder, but sometimes it can have the opposite impact. I mean, you know, as players, that you're part of the reason another man lost his job. That hurts and it can be dejecting if a guy like TD or 89 doesn't step up and be a leader. (And those are the guys that I think need to fill the leadership void right now.)

    It will be interesting to see where things go from here. Rumor has it that we might get back to more of a power running game offensively, something many of us have been calling for since the Giants game. (It was cute that the read option working so well against the Saints, but the degree to which we've continued to use it has been scary.) The decision on whether Gettis will play in Chicago should be made tomorrow (friday) and it will be interesting to see if they finally part ways with Armanti Edwards, or whether they trim somewhere else (*cough* D.J. Campbell *cough*).

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.E.PanthersFan View Post

    There's no doubt that the FO and the coaching staff could be doing better. If that wasn't the case, we'd -- at the very least -- have a winning record. Frankly, the part that bothers me most about firing Hurney is what that means for the roster moving forward. Does the next guy completely clear house? I mean, there's a ton of talent already here, it would be a shame if they saw this team as needing to start from square one. Granted, that should get the players to work even harder, but sometimes it can have the opposite impact. I mean, you know, as players, that you're part of the reason another man lost his job. That hurts and it can be dejecting if a guy like TD or 89 doesn't step up and be a leader. (And those are the guys that I think need to fill the leadership void right now.)
    Thats why I was thinking the firing of Hurney was the first step in a complete overhaul. Firing the GM really on signals 2 things. You still have condfidence in the coaches and the GM is the problem or that the whole thing is broken and everyone needs to be replaced. From what I've seen the coaching has been bad so I assumed this is a complete house cleaning. It almost seems like if the current players are retained that the coaches need to go or at least change the game plan. That me be something they are not able to do.

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    The RBS struggles have a lot to do with our terrible o-line and the formations were lining up in.

    Chud is next to go. Hs gadget plays and stubborn refusal to run conventional ones are getting him fired.

    But I also think we'll see some serious roster cuts this offseason.

    BRING BARRETT TO CAROLINA, GETTLEMAN!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCBoSoxfan21 View Post
    The RBS struggles have a lot to do with our terrible o-line and the formations were lining up in.

    Chud is next to go. Hs gadget plays and stubborn refusal to run conventional ones are getting him fired.

    But I also think we'll see some serious roster cuts this offseason.
    I'll leave it at: I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens. We know JR likes to keep his core intact and Rivera thought we were close enough to make a run this year. I'm going to see how the rest of the year plays out before condemning anyone.

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    Semi-related: Darius Butler just had an impressive game for the Colts, 2 INTs, 1 TD. Good for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by N.E.PanthersFan View Post
    Semi-related: Darius Butler just had an impressive game for the Colts, 2 INTs, 1 TD. Good for him.
    I still can't figure out why the team let him go. I'm not even saying that because he had a good game, but I can't imagine the team thought he wouldn't be better than any other CB not named Gamble this season and it's not like he was making that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    I still can't figure out why the team let him go. I'm not even saying that because he had a good game, but I can't imagine the team thought he wouldn't be better than any other CB not named Gamble this season and it's not like he was making that much.
    Yeah, I dunno. Apparently he just got outplayed during camp? I kinda thought he'd be the starter opposite Gamble going into camp, but oh well.

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