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  1. #286
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    I agree and disagree about the Sedins. I think it's a joke that people call them soft. That doesn't mean they deliver crushing hits, it means that they are VERY capable of taking constant hits. They are durable.

    Their problem is when teams take away their playmaking space. It has ZERO to do with toughness.

    Have I mentioned that I can't stand easy cliches?

    Edmonton won all those cups with a very soft Wayne Gretzky but they had a goon riding shotgun and the rules were different. Still he was only 1/3 of a line. Sure they had Kurri but no one crunched him. Gretzky basically drew the body checkers and passed out of goon coverage to the open man. When the Sedins are 2/3 of the top line, it's not so easy to continue to make your plays against tight coverage, the type of coverage that always comes with the playoffs.

    Basically they are BRILLIANT regular season players and they can't find a way to break open games in the post season. Not saying they aren't still good however. Problem is though that despite Kesler's one off against the Predators two playoffs ago, we have NADA as a scoring option.

    Typical Canucks problem that goes back to the West Coast Express days. We were a one line team then too.

    Easy to defend against those kind of teams and everyone knows it.

    SO ... any deal that Gillis makes now can't just be for rubbish. It needs to net us something (pardon the pun).

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    I agree with u I wouldn't either, but this is the type of deal I would be looking for if I were gillis. From Edmonton I would try and target Gagner and MPS. From Toronto there is nothing that they would give up so I hope to hell it doesn't happen. Florida is a weird one. I don't really know what to expect from them. I personally think when the trade does go down, it will be completely out of left field.

    Out of curiosity, what do u think it would take to pry Toews from u guys. It's a non starter cause he is the heart of the franchise, but in a pure hockey sense. It's especially intriguing because Kesler and Kane have history playing on the national team and Luongo is the goalie you have missed since the wall left. Hypothetically what more would u want in a trade?

    It's always fun to gauge perceived value for players because us fans always overvalue our own players, lol.
    I don't know if there's anything you guys could give up that would make me trade Toews. That's how much I like the guy. From other teams though, I'd want a big time player, like a Stamkos or a Malkin (neither of which would be traded for Toews), or I'd want a package of 3-4 good if not great players. My trade value for Toews is ridiculously high and as a Hawks fan, I'm sure I view him much more favorably than another team's fans would. What he brings to the table in terms of defense, scoring, winning face-offs, being a key member of both our PP and PK, and being arguably the best captain in all of hockey is what sets him apart from other players. He may not ever score nearly as much as a Stamkos or a Malkin (I see him topping out somewhere between 85-100 points), but I put him in that conversation because of his all-around game. Note that I'm not saying Toews is as good as either of those two players, I'm just saying he's a top-10 player IMO all things considered.
    Last edited by CubbieKid17; 11-15-2012 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Fixed a few mistakes I made.

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I agree and disagree about the Sedins. I think it's a joke that people call them soft. That doesn't mean they deliver crushing hits, it means that they are VERY capable of taking constant hits. They are durable.

    Their problem is when teams take away their playmaking space. It has ZERO to do with toughness.

    Have I mentioned that I can't stand easy cliches?

    Edmonton won all those cups with a very soft Wayne Gretzky but they had a goon riding shotgun and the rules were different. Still he was only 1/3 of a line. Sure they had Kurri but no one crunched him. Gretzky basically drew the body checkers and passed out of goon coverage to the open man. When the Sedins are 2/3 of the top line, it's not so easy to continue to make your plays against tight coverage, the type of coverage that always comes with the playoffs.

    Basically they are BRILLIANT regular season players and they can't find a way to break open games in the post season. Not saying they aren't still good however. Problem is though that despite Kesler's one off against the Predators two playoffs ago, we have NADA as a scoring option.

    Typical Canucks problem that goes back to the West Coast Express days. We were a one line team then too.

    Easy to defend against those kind of teams and everyone knows it.

    SO ... any deal that Gillis makes now can't just be for rubbish. It needs to net us something (pardon the pun).
    I understand everyone's dislike of the word "soft" when being used to describe a skilled player who's not a power forward but when someone "takes" your space it's because you can't keep it to yourself. That's their problem, they get knocked off the puck, therefore they are indeed soft in my opinion. I'm not talking about them being able to level someone, it's the inability to stand their ground with the puck that makes them soft. The difference between either Sedin and a guy like Toews for example are night and day when it comes to hanging on to the puck, yet they are relatively the same height. As I've said before the Sedins need to beef up and become more solid, and less like pushovers if they are going to be playoff players, that's their problem, call it what you want but I call it soft. I'm not expecting them to level everyone in their path or to fight but they have to be able to use their skill against the other teams top D and if they are getting pushed around they can't do that and are basically useless as a top minute eating type players in the playoffs

    Gretzky wasn't soft, if you went in the corner with him he was coming out with the puck no matter who you were. I just recently watched a Canada vs Russia game that was on and I was actually commenting about that the other day on how good Gretzky was in the corners. He was great at so many things that it isn't something people comment on but he was tenacious in there even though people don't think of him as being that way because he wasn't a hitter by any means. Ofcourse people don't consider him a goal scorer either but he has the most all time and really he didn't get those cups, world championships, regular season or playoff points by being soft. He was great at many things, one was you couldn't get the puck from him.
    --This ofcourse is just my opinion
    Last edited by bsi; 11-16-2012 at 01:24 AM.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubbieKid17 View Post
    I don't know if there's anything you guys could give up that would make me trade Toews. That's how much I like the guy. From other teams though, I'd want a big time player, like a Stamkos or a Malkin (neither of which would be traded for Toews), or I'd want a package of 3-4 good if not great players. My trade value for Toews is ridiculously high and as a Hawks fan, I'm sure I view him much more favorably than another team's fans would. What he brings to the table in terms of defense, scoring, winning face-offs, being a key member of both our PP and PK, and being arguably the best captain in all of hockey is what sets him apart from other players. He may not ever score nearly as much as a Stamkos or a Malkin (I see him topping out somewhere between 85-100 points), but I put him in that conversation because of his all-around game. Note that I'm not saying Toews is as good as either of those two players, I'm just saying he's a top-10 player IMO all things considered.
    Toews will never leave Chicago, he's the motor that runs that team. Chicago would have to get a serious package to let him go, something that I doubt another team would put together to be quite serious.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubbieKid17 View Post
    I don't know if there's anything you guys could give up that would make me trade Toews. That's how much I like the guy. From other teams though, I'd want a big time player, like a Stamkos or a Malkin (neither of which would be traded for Toews), or I'd want a package of 3-4 good if not great players. My trade value for Toews is ridiculously high and as a Hawks fan, I'm sure I view him much more favorably than another team's fans would. What he brings to the table in terms of defense, scoring, winning face-offs, being a key member of both our PP and PK, and being arguably the best captain in all of hockey is what sets him apart from other players. He may not ever score nearly as much as a Stamkos or a Malkin (I see him topping out somewhere between 85-100 points), but I put him in that conversation because of his all-around game. Note that I'm not saying Toews is as good as either of those two players, I'm just saying he's a top-10 player IMO all things considered.

    I know exactly what you mean and I would feel the same way if he was on my team. The problem with the Canucks is they don't have anybody to look to when they really need it. The Sedins are great players but just don't have it in the real tough games.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    I know exactly what you mean and I would feel the same way if he was on my team. The problem with the Canucks is they don't have anybody to look to when they really need it. The Sedins are great players but just don't have it in the real tough games.
    Definitely. I actually think the Sedins would benefit greatly from a few things. One would be Ryan Kesler actually getting (and staying) healthy. Another would be getting another wing that can score but also can stick up for them so they take less cheap shots. A guy like Troy Brouwer would probably do wonders for your team. One final thing you guys could use is a good young player to help bridge the gap for when the Sedins start to go downhill statistically. They're 32, so they've still probably got another 3 years of really good production before starting to go downhill, but having another young player that can sort of take over a little bit of the offensive responsibility as the Sedins go downhill would be a tremendous boost.

    Depth with the right amount of talent(especially up the middle and in scoring) as well as clutch goaltending and toughness will win you a Stanley Cup. Look at the last 3 Stanley Cup-winning teams. Kings, Bruins, and Hawks all had great depth to back up their talented cores, clutch goaltending, and plenty of toughness to back it up. You guys have depth up the middle if Kesler is healthy. You also have very good goaltending. What you could use is a wing to play with the Sedins and maybe a little more toughness.

    Edit: Also, if this whole season is locked out (I hope not!) then the draft would be decided by lottery. On the off-chance you guys get the #1 pick, you could take Nate MacKinnon and be sitting very pretty as far as talent is concerned.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    I understand everyone's dislike of the word "soft" when being used to describe a skilled player who's not a power forward but when someone "takes" your space it's because you can't keep it to yourself. That's their problem, they get knocked off the puck, therefore they are indeed soft in my opinion. I'm not talking about them being able to level someone, it's the inability to stand their ground with the puck that makes them soft. The difference between either Sedin and a guy like Toews for example are night and day when it comes to hanging on to the puck, yet they are relatively the same height. As I've said before the Sedins need to beef up and become more solid, and less like pushovers if they are going to be playoff players, that's their problem, call it what you want but I call it soft. I'm not expecting them to level everyone in their path or to fight but they have to be able to use their skill against the other teams top D and if they are getting pushed around they can't do that and are basically useless as a top minute eating type players in the playoffs

    Gretzky wasn't soft, if you went in the corner with him he was coming out with the puck no matter who you were. I just recently watched a Canada vs Russia game that was on and I was actually commenting about that the other day on how good Gretzky was in the corners. He was great at so many things that it isn't something people comment on but he was tenacious in there even though people don't think of him as being that way because he wasn't a hitter by any means. Ofcourse people don't consider him a goal scorer either but he has the most all time and really he didn't get those cups, world championships, regular season or playoff points by being soft. He was great at many things, one was you couldn't get the puck from him.
    --This ofcourse is just my opinion
    I don't see them getting knocked off the puck as much as having space taken away by systematic strategies by defensive minded coaches. They are actually extremely strong on the puck. Take a look at how H Sedin can control the puck (sometimes over control) even when harassed. The guy is incredible. I have the feeling when watching these brothers that once they have the puck they will not ever give it up. No, the problem is that they depend on open passing lanes and when those close up, they are really screwed. Most of their combo work is naturally done with passing right? The "soft" label and the "easy to knock off the puck" thing, I'm afraid, comes mainly from people who don't see them all the time. And I have to say, the hockey media are pretty superficial in their analyses. Pretty automatic. Little real thought about anyone who plays the game as differently as they do.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubbieKid17 View Post
    Definitely. I actually think the Sedins would benefit greatly from a few things. One would be Ryan Kesler actually getting (and staying) healthy. Another would be getting another wing that can score but also can stick up for them so they take less cheap shots.
    Lots of good suggestions as always. I TOTALLY agree that they need a wing who can score, not just deflect the puck at the crease.

    Imagine if the Canucks actually had a sniper on their wing!! We have NO ONE like that on our forward lines. The closest we had/have is Jason Garrison (unproven so far of course) and Sammi Salo (gone). But no forwards. Having a sniper who could also lay on the body would really help the Sedins regain their passing lanes and open ice. Opposing D's could be burned at any time if we had a sniper on the Sedins' wing.

    edit in: even bigger than our need for a front line winger is a competent second line.

    Back on topic ...

    You can see from the conversations we're having now that our needs are not for 3rd liners. We have tons of medium talent on this club and not enough elite talent. That's why it is completely pointless to trade with Toronto. They have almost no elite talent and they're not parting with what they have.
    Last edited by ink; 11-16-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I don't see them getting knocked off the puck as much as having space taken away by systematic strategies by defensive minded coaches. They are actually extremely strong on the puck. Take a look at how H Sedin can control the puck (sometimes over control) even when harassed. The guy is incredible. I have the feeling when watching these brothers that once they have the puck they will not ever give it up. No, the problem is that they depend on open passing lanes and when those close up, they are really screwed. Most of their combo work is naturally done with passing right? The "soft" label and the "easy to knock off the puck" thing, I'm afraid, comes mainly from people who don't see them all the time. And I have to say, the hockey media are pretty superficial in their analyses. Pretty automatic. Little real thought about anyone who plays the game as differently as they do.
    I see them plenty, they aren't physically strong enough to play playoff hockey against a big D. They're great during the regular season when there's more ice available but as soon as they get against a tough D pair they're invisible.

    The coaching strategies are used against every team, other elite players find a way to score and contribute in spite of them. It's time to stop making excuses for them really. There's two of them, two 100 point guys on one line that can't win the big game.

    The worst thing is that the Canucks have had a swinging door of players come and go trying to find someone for their wing to drag these two superstars to a Stanley Cup. The trade of Cody Hodgson for Kassian is the latest in what can only be described as a trade of a skilled center for a potential 3rd liner. The Sedins have to look around the league. Guys like Stamkos, Toews, Crosby, Malkin are all getting stronger and heavier, they realize they need the size and they are working their azzes off to get it. To sum it up, I think they're fine hockey players but they have to bulk up or move on for Vancouver to win a cup. They just take up too much ice time to be ineffective when you need them most. Not to sound like I'm picking on them but it's an observation from an unbiased hockey watcher. They aren't the only ones in the league but here in Canada they are the most obvious targets.

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    I see them plenty, they aren't physically strong enough to play playoff hockey against a big D. They're great during the regular season when there's more ice available but as soon as they get against a tough D pair they're invisible.

    The coaching strategies are used against every team, other elite players find a way to score and contribute in spite of them. It's time to stop making excuses for them really. There's two of them, two 100 point guys on one line that can't win the big game.

    The worst thing is that the Canucks have had a swinging door of players come and go trying to find someone for their wing to drag these two superstars to a Stanley Cup. The trade of Cody Hodgson for Kassian is the latest in what can only be described as a trade of a skilled center for a potential 3rd liner. The Sedins have to look around the league. Guys like Stamkos, Toews, Crosby, Malkin are all getting stronger and heavier, they realize they need the size and they are working their azzes off to get it. To sum it up, I think they're fine hockey players but they have to bulk up or move on for Vancouver to win a cup. They just take up too much ice time to be ineffective when you need them most. Not to sound like I'm picking on them but it's an observation from an unbiased hockey watcher. They aren't the only ones in the league but here in Canada they are the most obvious targets.
    You're watching different games than me because I don't see a problem with the Sedins being strong enough to stay on the puck. Like I said, once they have the puck it's almost automatic that they will retain control. Where they lose the puck is in cycling it. THAT is where the opposition has learned to beat them -- in the passes, especially along the boards, between them. Do they drive the net? Absolutely not. But they never do, whether it's the regular season or not. That's the only time I find them wanting physically. I strongly disagree with your observation. I just haven't seen it the way you describe at all.

    And absolutely yes, the Canucks are killing themselves by trading talent for less talent. Hodgson for Kassian. That is the LAST thing they should do when trading Luongo, and it's exactly the reason Gillis must be holding out.

    He can't trade a goalie of that calibre for someone else's mediocrity.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    You're watching different games than me because I don't see a problem with the Sedins being strong enough to stay on the puck. Like I said, once they have the puck it's almost automatic that they will retain control. Where they lose the puck is in cycling it. THAT is where the opposition has learned to beat them -- in the passes, especially along the boards, between them. Do they drive the net? Absolutely not. But they never do, whether it's the regular season or not. That's the only time I find them wanting physically. I strongly disagree with your observation. I just haven't seen it the way you describe at all.

    And absolutely yes, the Canucks are killing themselves by trading talent for less talent. Hodgson for Kassian. That is the LAST thing they should do when trading Luongo, and it's exactly the reason Gillis must be holding out.

    He can't trade a goalie of that calibre for someone else's mediocrity.
    What is preventing them from being playoff players then? They are mentally and physically soft when it comes to the playoffs. How do BOTH of them disappear in the playoffs, yet guys like Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, Malkin all thrive on the playoffs? It's funny because since they are twins we almost consider them one player but if you had two Malkin's on your team doing nothing when you needed it most it would be mind boggling and fans would be outraged.
    There's no reason that you've presented that would swerve me from my position that they are softer players than all the guys listed above. There's two of them eating up over 12 million to do what? Have a great season and then shut it down during playoffs? What possible explanation can you give that explains their performance against teams with strong D once playoffs start? I'm really not ranting just wondering what you think their problem is because everyone wants to blame it on something else, anything else but them. But last time I checked they were the leading minute eaters on the team and they get all the PP time they want.

    Believe me, I'm a Ranger fan first but I follow all the Canadian teams as well, I'm not blindly speaking about this and spewing stats from a website, I've watched them and every year they play well all season and when the going gets tough, they pull the shoot, and since my team wasn't going deep in the playoffs until last year it frustrated me too as I was cheering for the Canucks to beat Boston. But they couldn't even work a PP by that point, let alone play even strength as they were being physically dominated and mentally agitated beyond belief.

    Anyway, it's not my team but that's how I feel as an unbiased hockey player, lover and watcher. I'm sure you'll keep your opinion as I will mine and we'll have to agree to disagree.
    Last edited by bsi; 11-16-2012 at 04:55 PM.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    What is preventing them from being playoff players then? They are mentally and physically soft when it comes to the playoffs.
    Stopped reading right there, sorry. That's just BS. They are not at all mentally soft, in fact they are tough as hell to take the idiotic abuse they do. It's the ******** media that is too stupid to see that when they are stoic about taking hits, it is somehow seen as "soft". They don't retaliate, they don't play North American hockey, whether it's good or bad, they're making a choice. They think they have more chance of success playing a skill game, and they do not back down. I have seen them take punishing hit after punishing hit and they keep coming back, going on the attack, but going on the attack THEIR way.

    What prevents them from succeeding in the playoffs? As explained, they depend COMPLETELY on a passing game. If you watch them as you say you do you would know that. Other coaches have even said that the trick to stopping the Sedins is to cut off their passing lanes. They do not have the room they need to get pucks through to each other. If you watch them you'll see that quite often it is the third pass that breaks a man free. They create openings for linemates this way. If they can't pass the puck, they can't move the opposition out of position. Regular season or not, they play this way. They almost never play a direct contact game; it's not their game. Their game is to suck the defender into chasing THEM then move the puck accurately to the open man. Works much ilke passing out of a double team. The contact is actually kind of irrelevant to this type of play. It's just your North American bias that can't see past the idea of hitting another player to create or prevent a scoring chance. Most North Americans play this way. The Sedins never have. Unfortunately it works in the reg season but doesn't work when passing lanes are gone.
    Last edited by ink; 11-16-2012 at 05:25 PM.

  13. #298
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    To me they are anything but soft, they just don't seem to have that other gear. They are very good players and elte playmakers just not elite finishers. They need somebody on their line to open up space which burrows just cannot do for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Lots of good suggestions as always. I TOTALLY agree that they need a wing who can score, not just deflect the puck at the crease.

    Imagine if the Canucks actually had a sniper on their wing!! We have NO ONE like that on our forward lines. The closest we had/have is Jason Garrison (unproven so far of course) and Sammi Salo (gone). But no forwards. Having a sniper who could also lay on the body would really help the Sedins regain their passing lanes and open ice. Opposing D's could be burned at any time if we had a sniper on the Sedins' wing.

    edit in: even bigger than our need for a front line winger is a competent second line.

    Back on topic ...

    You can see from the conversations we're having now that our needs are not for 3rd liners. We have tons of medium talent on this club and not enough elite talent. That's why it is completely pointless to trade with Toronto. They have almost no elite talent and they're not parting with what they have.
    The problem with Toronto is that the way I feel about Toews is the way their fans feel about any decent prospect they have. The fans don't want to give up much for Luongo, and I understand the skepticism of trading for a 33-year old goalie (albeit a definite top-10 one) with a long contract. Thing is, their GM makes the moves, not the fans. I don't think Toronto would have any problem giving up one of their young defenseman (not Gardiner or Rielly) and a young forward or two or even a Clarke MacArthur type (who I think would be a nice player for you guys). Maybe the fans wouldn't like it, but from my experiences, I've found that a lot of Toronto fans seem to think the hockey world revolves around them. No offense to some of the Toronto fans who don't think like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    To me they are anything but soft, they just don't seem to have that other gear. They are very good players and elte playmakers just not elite finishers. They need somebody on their line to open up space which burrows just cannot do for them.
    Getting them a wing, like when the Penguins got James Neal, would be huge for the Sedins. I don't even think they need a big time scorer. I think a Troy Brouwer type would do very well (20 goals, 40 points type season while sticking up for them and having over 200 hits) playing next to the twins. At the same time, if they were to get a big time goal scorer to go with the twins, that could work really well too. If you guys somehow got both, that's a serious Cup contender right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    To me they are anything but soft, they just don't seem to have that other gear. They are very good players and elte playmakers just not elite finishers. They need somebody on their line to open up space which burrows just cannot do for them.
    This.

    But I still maintain we could get by with that first line.

    It's the second line that is ****ing brutal. And that is a good thing because any trade Gillis might be able to swing has a better chance of helping our second line than our first.

    Not too likely we'll get top line talent in a trade for a goalie who is disparaged because of his contract.

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