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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    VERY easy actually.

    1. you just listed elite goaltenders, a group he belongs in, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him play late into his career
    2. he is in extremely good shape, works hard, and upgrades his techniques consistently
    3. he will retire when he is not effective any more, he is a proud athlete and a quality individual

    The point about the lengthy contract is actually extremely weak and ignores the fact that any club that got him would have many options. It's obvious that it's not black and white, unless of course your interest is in exaggerating the contract problem so he can be acquired for scraps.

    Happily Gillis is not biting. He knows Luongo and he knows better. The tandem will be fine in Vancouver.
    1.There's not much to go on to prove Luongo would play late in his career at a high level. Very few have done it and the numbers state it's unlikely.
    2.I'd assume most players are pretty dedicated, goalies more so than other positions given how precise they need to be. It's great that he's so dedicated but that doesn't mean he can sustain success. We've seen some pretty dedicated players over the years who once they hit that wall at 35 or so, there's a steady decline. This is my problem with getting a goalie of his age.
    3.I'm not doubting his character but I think it's safe to say that this retirement deal was handed out with Luongo anticipating playing until about 40. I doubt he has any plans to retire earlier IMO. All speculation of course.

    As has been pointed out, I doubt he or Schneider would he happy splitting time and with a top goalie prospect coming up sooner or later, somethings gotta give. A 33 year old Luongo is more valuable than a 35 or 36 year old Luongo.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJayFanDan View Post
    I could give a pretty good one actually.

    The 1st part is that Save% did not become an official stat until I believe 1982 if I am not mistaken, therefore, you are only giving us 30 years worth of goalies.

    The second part to that is, you make no mention of the scoring era when using those stats. In the days where players were scoring like 150 points a year, goalies were not putting up the numbers they do today. It's really been the last 10-12 when we have see goalies putting up these .922 Save% type numbers. For instance, Random year we will say the 92-93 season. 21 players scored over 100 points, with Lemeuix scoring 160 leading the way. Only 5 goalies that season put up a Save% over .900, with CuJo putting up the highest one at .911. The reason you never saw a 33+ goalie putting up a .910 or better Save% is because realistically, for a couple decades, not many goalies did on a year to year basis...Not to mention, in the 80s it was kind of rare for goalies to play 55+ games. Look at guys like Patrick Roy for instance. Games by year starting with his rookie season: 1,47,46,45,48,54,48,67...That 67 game season was in the 91-92 season when goalies started getting more games in the 90s as I previously said. So realistically based on no Save% before the early 80s, and few goalies playing 50+ games in the 80s, your stats are now only going through 2 decades, and 1 of which was still part of the scoring era, where I previously mentioned goalies were not putting up the numbers they do now.
    Scoring era or not, put this into context here. Most guys who were listed had played within the last decade or so. Scoring rates haven't changed that much.

  2. #197
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    So what I'm getting out of this thread from Leaf fans is that you're better off with Reimer in the net then? Nobody is gonna give you a legit starting goalie for the type of players you're all talking about. Finish this sentence. Give me a true or false on these two questions.

    1) The leafs will for sure make the playoffs next year and for the next five years with Reimer, true or false?
    2) The leafs will for sure make the playoffs next year and for the next five with Luongo, true or false?

    I already know what the answer to those questions should be, a grade 1 student would know what the answers are. So if the first one is false and the second one is true, then don't you think Mike Gillis knows this? All the leaf fans on here have done is make up reasons why Luongo shouldn't be worth much but at the same time you all want him. Well you can't have it both ways, he's either an elite goalie worthy of a good package of players that aren't future 3rd liners, or he's useless to you and you're better off staying the course with Reimer because Vancouver isn't giving him to Toronto for nothing. They'll get something of value from someone whether it's the Leafs, Chicago, Florida, Edmonton etc etc. If not they'll just keep him, it's as simple as that. Nobody has even said if Luongo WANTS to go to Toronto, he has control over that and maybe he'd like to join a contender. Bottom line is the Canucks dont have to trade him to Toronto unless they get what they want, they have the player Toronto needs, not the other way around.
    Last edited by bsi; 11-05-2012 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Scoring era or not, put this into context here. Most guys who were listed had played within the last decade or so. Scoring rates haven't changed that much.
    You are aware that enhances my argument right? My whole argument was that goalies these days are getting much better stats. The scoring era ended like 13-15 years ago give or take. That's when goalies started getting better stats, therefore guys like Luongo, and Rinne, and Lundqvist, and other top goalies have a much better chances of living up to the numbers in the stats you posted.
    TAKE PRIDE

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJayFanDan View Post
    You are aware that enhances my argument right? My whole argument was that goalies these days are getting much better stats. The scoring era ended like 13-15 years ago give or take. That's when goalies started getting better stats, therefore guys like Luongo, and Rinne, and Lundqvist, and other top goalies have a much better chances of living up to the numbers in the stats you posted.
    No, not really helping you at all. My point was the guys listed were all, for the most part, from this current era i.e the lower scoring era which, if anything, would make Luongo's stats less impressive,no? This is part of what my argument was a week ago; the goalie market is saturated. There are too many guys who are too close statistically which, in theory, makes it tougher to move Luongo based on market saturation alone. I could name a dozen goalies, which I have, and you could argue they are slightly below him, the same or slightly above. The numbers posted in the future will be put into the context of whom was playing at the same time as Luongo.

    So instead of using the .910 mark, you can use .915 or .920 or some other hypothetical arbitrary number. It doesn't mean he'd be at the top of that list by the time his career is done and with the assumption and probability that he begins to decline which, again, has been shown in the past to start happening right around the age he currently is. There's no way you or anyone else can convince me he'll be great in 4 years because you have little to nothing to back it up with. The numbers state this but it's not 100%. You're taking the small percentage because he happens to play on your team.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    VERY easy actually.

    1. you just listed elite goaltenders, a group he belongs in, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him play late into his career
    2. he is in extremely good shape, works hard, and upgrades his techniques consistently
    3. he will retire when he is not effective any more, he is a proud athlete and a quality individual

    The point about the lengthy contract is actually extremely weak and ignores the fact that any club that got him would have many options. It's obvious that it's not black and white, unless of course your interest is in exaggerating the contract problem so he can be acquired for scraps.

    Happily Gillis is not biting. He knows Luongo and he knows better. The tandem will be fine in Vancouver.
    http://blogs.theprovince.com/2012/05...ngo-wants-out/

    Luongo doesn't want to be in Vancouver. How could a tandem be fine if one part isn't functioning right?

    And if you think Luongo will last 6+ more years at a high level, why aren't you trading Schneider for some good pieces? If Schneider knew about Luongo's longevity, why would he sign a 3 year contract as a tandem goalie? Why would Gillis sign 2 goalies who are splitting time for 10+ million a year?

    He is trading one of the goalies.

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    1.There's not much to go on to prove Luongo would play late in his career at a high level. Very few have done it and the numbers state it's unlikely.
    No they don't. BJFD set you straight on that.

    2.I'd assume most players are pretty dedicated, goalies more so than other positions given how precise they need to be. It's great that he's so dedicated but that doesn't mean he can sustain success. We've seen some pretty dedicated players over the years who once they hit that wall at 35 or so, there's a steady decline. This is my problem with getting a goalie of his age.
    His work ethic is substantial and his will to improve is too. I don't feel any need to prove beyond what I've seen for the years he's been in Vancouver.

    3.I'm not doubting his character but I think it's safe to say that this retirement deal was handed out with Luongo anticipating playing until about 40. I doubt he has any plans to retire earlier IMO. All speculation of course.
    He'll retire when he can't play up to his own standards. That will not be 10 years from now. So the contract term is really a red herring.

    As has been pointed out, I doubt he or Schneider would he happy splitting time and with a top goalie prospect coming up sooner or later, somethings gotta give. A 33 year old Luongo is more valuable than a 35 or 36 year old Luongo.
    Trade deadline, 2013. If there is a 2013 season.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0h@n63 View Post
    http://blogs.theprovince.com/2012/05...ngo-wants-out/

    Luongo doesn't want to be in Vancouver. How could a tandem be fine if one part isn't functioning right?
    He didn't say he didn't want to be in Vancouver. He said we was open to a trade. Then when he returned to Vancouver this year he gave one interview to ensure that everyone knew there would be no problems between him and Schneids.

    And if you think Luongo will last 6+ more years at a high level, why aren't you trading Schneider for some good pieces? If Schneider knew about Luongo's longevity, why would he sign a 3 year contract as a tandem goalie? Why would Gillis sign 2 goalies who are splitting time for 10+ million a year?
    I didn't say he will last 6+ years. I've been saying he'll retire when he can't play up to his own standards.

    He is trading one of the goalies.
    No doubt. Question is when.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    You're taking the small percentage because he happens to play on your team.
    No, he's doing that because he's a damn good goaltender.

    Funny thing is that I like your devaluation of Luongo. Attitudes like this make it less likely that we'll receive any Leafs players in a deal.

    Hopefully Burke also aggressively devalues Luongo. lol.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    No they don't. BJFD set you straight on that.



    His work ethic is substantial and his will to improve is too. I don't feel any need to prove beyond what I've seen for the years he's been in Vancouver.



    He'll retire when he can't play up to his own standards. That will not be 10 years from now. So the contract term is really a red herring.



    Trade deadline, 2013. If there is a 2013 season.
    He didn't set me straight at all. Read my other post. You say he'll stop playing when it's now up to his own standards. Prove it. You can't, simple as that. You wanna take a man for his word then that's great but if there's one thing I can generalize about athletes it's their greed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    No, he's doing that because he's a damn good goaltender.

    Funny thing is that I like your devaluation of Luongo. Attitudes like this make it less likely that we'll receive any Leafs players in a deal.

    Hopefully Burke also aggressively devalues Luongo. lol.
    Devaluation? It's called realistic expectations assuming he comes here. I don't expect much more than 2-3 years of sustainable, above-average goaltending. After that, it's up in the air. It's great that yourself and Dan have a theory that you believe is concrete when there's little to back it up with other than his pride and other hypothetical characteristics about Roberto. I have numbers and it's about the only proof there really is. Guys break down. It happens. It's called getting old. I still don't buy that a guy will walk away from $5 million a season because his play isn't up to his standards. Has that ever happened before? any instances? It's about as rare as getting struck by lightning.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    He didn't set me straight at all. Read my other post. You say he'll stop playing when it's now up to his own standards. Prove it. You can't, simple as that. You wanna take a man for his word then that's great but if there's one thing I can generalize about athletes it's their greed.
    I have no doubt about his character.

    Devaluation? It's called realistic expectations assuming he comes here. I don't expect much more than 2-3 years of sustainable, above-average goaltending. After that, it's up in the air. It's great that yourself and Dan have a theory that you believe is concrete when there's little to back it up with other than his pride and other hypothetical characteristics about Roberto. I have numbers and it's about the only proof there really is. Guys break down. It happens. It's called getting old. I still don't buy that a guy will walk away from $5 million a season because his play isn't up to his standards. Has that ever happened before? any instances? It's about as rare as getting struck by lightning.
    Like I said, I hope Burke shares your views (and to be honest, TSN's, which is based in Toronto and feeds you guys this stuff). It means we won't have to accept Leafs players and prospects in a deal..

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I have no doubt about his character.



    Like I said, I hope Burke shares your views (and to be honest, TSN's, which is based in Toronto and feeds you guys this stuff). It means we won't have to accept Leafs players and prospects in a deal..
    Haha you don't think TSN has Leafs bias do you? you wanna see bias, watch sportsnet West.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Haha you don't think TSN has Leafs bias do you? you wanna see bias, watch sportsnet West.
    No not Leafs bias, they just assume that everyone in the universe wants the Leafs to get better. Newsflash: most fans care about their home teams and not everyone lives in Toronto.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    No not Leafs bias, they just assume that everyone in the universe wants the Leafs to get better. Newsflash: most fans care about their home teams and not everyone lives in Toronto.
    Toronto is the center of the universe ink, you know this.

  14. #209
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    Halladay, why do you expect 2-3 years of above average goaltending when Luongo has been nothing of the sort? I can understand in 2-3 years worrying about getting above average goaltending, but for at least 2 years, in my opinion, you will be getting a very good goaltender and a much needed leader in that dressing room. This is a guy with a career .919 save%, a 2.52 GGA, 60 shutouts. Those are HOF numbers.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Toronto is the center of the universe ink, you know this.
    As the universe, I can confirm this.

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



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