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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    If Komisarik at 3.5 isn't bad than Luongo at 5 is amazing.
    Hmmm funny how you left the key point here.

    Komi's 2 years @ 3.5

    vs

    Luongo's 10 years @ 5

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Yup, who would have thought that 2 players, Kulemin and Mac, in their prime would be better at the moment then a kid who was barely old enough to buy a beer.
    Umm, I would expect that of a high first rounder. Tavares, Hedman, Duchene and Kane all have more than 100 games under their belts. They are critical to their teams and they are not being bumped by the Kulemins and the MacArthur's of the NHL. Good try but weak point.

    And this is not just about Kadri, who was a weak pick, this is about Burke's terrible development record with the Leafs and the fact that the Canucks are not going to trade an Olympic gold medal starting goaltender for guys who won't crack a contender's lineup. Kadri can't even crack the lineup of a team that perennially misses the playoffs!!

    How is that so difficult to understand???
    Last edited by ink; 11-01-2012 at 11:01 PM.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Hmmm funny how you left the key point here.

    Komi's 2 years @ 3.5

    vs

    Luongo's 10 years @ 5
    That's two wasted years of salary on an average player vs. a very good price on a starting goaltender who will do something for whatever club that takes him, and he will retire long before the 10 years is up.

    The 10 years is a silly red herring being used by fans and by clubs bargaining for Luongo to keep the price down.

    I say, keep the tandem. Don't settle for mediocrity in return for quality.
    Last edited by ink; 11-01-2012 at 11:08 PM.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    if you take a look Burke has done a pretty damn good job of being cap conscious and doesn't hand out 12 year deals.
    Sure, he's been cap conscious. Few of his players are worth anything. Makes it easy to be frugal doesn't it?

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Umm, I would expect that of a high first rounder. Tavares, Hedman, Duchene and Kane all have more than 100 games under their belts. They are critical to their teams and they are not being bumped by the Kulemins and the MacArthur's of the NHL. Good try but weak point.

    And this is not just about Kadri, who was a weak pick, this is about Burke's terrible development record with the Leafs and the fact that the Canucks are not going to trade an Olympic gold medal starting goaltender for guys who won't crack a contender's lineup. Kadri can't even crack the lineup of a team that perennially misses the playoffs!!

    How is that so difficult to understand???
    Burke has been the GM of the Leafs GM for less than 4 years. 4 years ink. How much development do you expect in that amount of time? You conveniently left out the fact that those guys were all can't miss prospects, drafted first or second overall, you seriously cannot compare first or second overall draft picks to 7th overall prospects. That is a huge leap. You also leave out the fact that Burke dealt two top picks and got Kessel. He also picked up Gardiner and JVR. He also just selected the CHL's leading scorer, on defense, in Rielly. You didn't really address the stats I pointed out with Kulemin and MacArthur, you can't possibly ignore that. And not being a playoff team has nothing to do with one wing prospect making the team or not. You are seriously undervaluing the hell out of Kadri who according to experts, isn't doing too shabby at all. And Luongo looked awful in the gold medal game, while on the subject. Not one person in this country was confident with that guy in net in that game.
    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    That's two wasted years of salary on an average player vs. a very good price on a starting goaltender who will do something for whatever club that takes him, and he will retire long before the 10 years is up.

    The 10 years is a silly red herring being used by fans and by clubs bargaining for Luongo to keep the price down.

    I say, keep the tandem. Don't settle for mediocrity in return for quality.
    Okay, so two wasted years vs say, 8 years of Luongo. So, are we assuming Luongo will be perfect, a great goalie, approaching 40? wouldn't you say he's got some wasted years in there?

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Sure, he's been cap conscious. Few of his players are worth anything. Makes it easy to be frugal doesn't it?
    Okay, none of these guys are worth anything?

    Kessel
    Lupul
    Gardiner
    Phaneuf
    Kulemin
    JVR
    Grabovski
    Gunnar
    Rielly
    Colborne
    Kadri
    Finn
    Biggs
    Ross

    Being cap conscious is about being smart with the cap, not these ridiculous overpayments and retirement deals. Something half the GM's in the NHL have been guilty of.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Everything I said is absolutely true. If he hypothetically went back into the draft today, he'd be a top 5 pick. All the tools are there. And I never said Karlsson or Widemen were horrendous, I never mentioned Widemen. I don't even know how Karlsson and Widemen are even in the same sentence together.
    Not in the '08 draft. Stamkos, Doughty, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Eberle, John Carlson, and Tyler Myers are all definitely ahead of him if the '08 draft were redrafted. That's just looking at the guys who went in the first. Stepan, Ennis, and possibly Justin Schultz (depending on how he plays in the NHL and if he would've signed right away with a team like Edmonton) would arguably go before him as well. He's talented for sure, but I think you're overrating him a bit. I've heard a Duncan Keith comparison, which I think is a bit lofty, but I think he could be a very high-end 3/4 defenseman. Realistically, he'd probably go anywhere from #9-12 in a re-draft of the 2008 draft. That was a good draft for premium talent in the first round.

    Edit: Also, my bad if you already went over that. I just saw this post and figured I should respond to it.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubbieKid17 View Post
    Not in the '08 draft. Stamkos, Doughty, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, Eberle, John Carlson, and Tyler Myers are all definitely ahead of him if the '08 draft were redrafted. That's just looking at the guys who went in the first. Stepan, Ennis, and possibly Justin Schultz (depending on how he plays in the NHL and if he would've signed right away with a team like Edmonton) would arguably go before him as well. He's talented for sure, but I think you're overrating him a bit. I've heard a Duncan Keith comparison, which I think is a bit lofty, but I think he could be a very high-end 3/4 defenseman. Realistically, he'd probably go anywhere from #9-12 in a re-draft of the 2008 draft. That was a good draft for premium talent in the first round.

    Edit: Also, my bad if you already went over that. I just saw this post and figured I should respond to it.
    I wasn't referring to his specific class, It was the hypothetical if he were in say, this June's class. I don't think I've heard one Keith comparison...I know some have compared Rielly to Keith but not Gardiner. I don't see them comparing IMO. Gardiner is much more of a Karlsson type.

  8. #173
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    You keep saying Luongo is overpaid because of the length of his contract? If Luongo signs a 5 year deal instead he is making 6 to 7 mil, so how is 5 an overpayment? If anything he is at a good cap hit. I understand your point about the last few years, he will regress, but I cannot see Luongo playing till he's 40. This guy has too much pride to stick around to long. It would eat him up inside. As somebody who actually wants to see the leafs succeed, I hope you get Luongo but as a Canucks fan first I just expect a decent return.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    You keep saying Luongo is overpaid because of the length of his contract? If Luongo signs a 5 year deal instead he is making 6 to 7 mil, so how is 5 an overpayment? If anything he is at a good cap hit. I understand your point about the last few years, he will regress, but I cannot see Luongo playing till he's 40. This guy has too much pride to stick around to long. It would eat him up inside. As somebody who actually wants to see the leafs succeed, I hope you get Luongo but as a Canucks fan first I just expect a decent return.
    If Luongo were 25 and not 33 then that changes things. Given his age, the contract isn't nearly as good as it's being made out to be. Not even those last few years that he likely doesn't play, if he's only good for 2-3 years than it's again, not a good contract. Yes, the cap hit is low, I get that, that's the point of these decade+ long deals but the length is still an issue. Having a 37 or 38 year old Luongo playing backup being $5 million a year on the cap is terrible cap management. Gillis must realize that if he's going to deal Luongo, it'd better be sooner rather than later.

  10. #175
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    In my opinion Luongo will max play till he is 38. He will make 6 mil in actual salary. Unless he is still playing well he will retire because it drops to 3.5 the next year. Do you honestly think Luongo is finished at 38? Maybe, but I don't think so.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    In my opinion Luongo will max play till he is 38. He will make 6 mil in actual salary. Unless he is still playing well he will retire because it drops to 3.5 the next year. Do you honestly think Luongo is finished at 38? Maybe, but I don't think so.
    At 38? that's pretty damn old for any player, meanwhile, a position that requires as much agility as goaltending does. There are cases where goalies are still good in their late 30's but Luongo has a ton of miles on him. Percentages say there will be a dropoff.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    I wasn't referring to his specific class, It was the hypothetical if he were in say, this June's class. I don't think I've heard one Keith comparison...I know some have compared Rielly to Keith but not Gardiner. I don't see them comparing IMO. Gardiner is much more of a Karlsson type.
    I forget where I heard the Duncan Keith comparison. I might be thinking of Gunnarrsson. I know one of them was compared to Keith, though. Admittedly, I haven't seen much of Gardiner. I just know he's got a lot of talent.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by CubbieKid17 View Post
    I forget where I heard the Duncan Keith comparison. I might be thinking of Gunnarrsson. I know one of them was compared to Keith, though. Admittedly, I haven't seen much of Gardiner. I just know he's got a lot of talent.
    I know Morgan Rielly, whom the Leafs just drafted 5th overall, has been compared to Keith. I also dislike player comparisons when a kid is 17 or 18 years old, I find it ridiculous but nonetheless. Gunnar is sort of like Keith. He's a very under rated dman who's very intelligent and rarely makes mistakes but he's not on the same level. Then again, Keith has seemed to regress since the Hawks cup win likely due to simply wearing down.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    I know Morgan Rielly, whom the Leafs just drafted 5th overall, has been compared to Keith. I also dislike player comparisons when a kid is 17 or 18 years old, I find it ridiculous but nonetheless. Gunnar is sort of like Keith. He's a very under rated dman who's very intelligent and rarely makes mistakes but he's not on the same level. Then again, Keith has seemed to regress since the Hawks cup win likely due to simply wearing down.
    I don't think it's wearing down as much as not having the same weapons to pass to. Let's not forget that the 2010 Blackhawks had ridiculous depth. There were 9 potential 20+ goal scorers on that team. Losing Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, and Brouwer had as much to do with Keith's regression as anything IMO. He had a career year the same year many of the young talents on the Blackhawks had big years and once some of those players left, he regressed to his earlier numbers. He's still solid defensively and a very solid scorer. He's just not as good as he was that year.

    Edit: Also fwiw, analysts thought Keith would be a 3/4 defenseman and he's been playing on the top pairing for a little while now.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Burke has been the GM of the Leafs GM for less than 4 years. 4 years ink.
    It's already been ample time for him to show his tendencies, as if we didn't already know from his time in Vancouver. I wouldn't touch his players with a ten foot pole. You forget that Canucks fans are very familiar with him.

    Okay, so two wasted years vs say, 8 years of Luongo. So, are we assuming Luongo will be perfect, a great goalie, approaching 40? wouldn't you say he's got some wasted years in there?
    He will retire when he's ineffective. That means he will give very good service until he retires. The 10 years is virtually meaningless. That's why it's a red herring. How is that not understandable? lol.

    Okay, none of these guys are worth anything?

    Kessel
    Lupul
    Gardiner
    Phaneuf
    Kulemin
    JVR
    Grabovski
    Gunnar
    Rielly
    Colborne
    Kadri
    Finn
    Biggs
    Ross

    Being cap conscious is about being smart with the cap, not these ridiculous overpayments and retirement deals. Something half the GM's in the NHL have been guilty of.
    A handful, and he will balk at letting them go. And we don't need or want a few of the "better" players on the team. Remember, the Canucks are contending and have very specific needs, we're not at the stage the Leafs are at, where they need anything and everything and still have the luxury of wishful thinking. Canucks know they failed two contending seasons in a row and know what their needs are. They also know that Luongo is an excellent goalie who won't be given up for bit players, players that may not crack the NHL, or players we can't use.
    Last edited by ink; 11-02-2012 at 09:30 AM.

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