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  1. #61
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    I like Jake Gardiner, I just don't think we'll be seeing him in the discussion for top 10 defenseman any time soon. If ever.


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    Please tell me how Fleury is better than Luongo. This is so rediculous. Toronto fans way undervalue luongo because they don't want to give much up, but as soon as he is there he will be the second coming.
    lol, so true.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by homie564 View Post
    I'm talking from defensive standpoints. Karlsson is obviously a million times the player Wideman is. And I don't believe I'd take Gardiner in the top 5. Top 10? maybe. You're telling me if you were a team like the Islanders, or someone with a top 5 pick, you'd trade your first round pick for Jake Gardiner? I would have a tough time parting with a top 10 pick for him nevermind Top 5. The Top 5 is usually reserved for guys with franchise player upside (top 3 would be debatable, but at the very least Top 5 in a draft should be players with practically no ceiling. Gardiner I would say has a pretty firm ceiling at this point of a #2 defenseman, and like any player, it's possible he breaks through that.)
    Using the 2012 draft as an example, I would take Gardiner over anyone in the top 10 not named Yakupov,Murray,Galchenyuk and Rielly. Just my opinion obviously.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by i am bob View Post
    I like Jake Gardiner, I just don't think we'll be seeing him in the discussion for top 10 defenseman any time soon. If ever.
    While I won't sit here and say Gardiner will be in top ____ I will say that he led all rookie defensemen in scoring last year and made it look pretty effortless. In a full NHL season, 50 points is attainable without question for him which would put him beside anyone not named Karlsson. Scary thing is, we just drafted Morgan Rielly who should be better than Gardiner and may even surpass Dougie Hamilton among the top defensive prospect lists. We'll see.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    While I won't sit here and say Gardiner will be in top ____ I will say that he led all rookie defensemen in scoring last year and made it look pretty effortless. In a full NHL season, 50 points is attainable without question for him which would put him beside anyone not named Karlsson. Scary thing is, we just drafted Morgan Rielly who should be better than Gardiner and may even surpass Dougie Hamilton among the top defensive prospect lists. We'll see.
    he what 8 more points then faulk? and 13 more then Cowen whose a stay at home defenceman. wasent exactly a strong class to lead
    Sens Raps Jays

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    While I won't sit here and say Gardiner will be in top ____ I will say that he led all rookie defensemen in scoring last year and made it look pretty effortless. In a full NHL season, 50 points is attainable without question for him which would put him beside anyone not named Karlsson. Scary thing is, we just drafted Morgan Rielly who should be better than Gardiner and may even surpass Dougie Hamilton among the top defensive prospect lists. We'll see.
    Also,

    Jake Gardiner

    first half, 38 games: 10 points with 2 on PP
    second half, 37 games: 7 goals, 20 pts with 4 on PP

    Once he gets first unit PP Time (or even more PP time), no reason why he can't be a 40+ point defenseman.. Actually should achieve that pretty easily given his skill set.

    Even if he stays where he is now, he's a top 4 D who can log 22 minutes a night. No problem with that at all. Leafs finally look legit on the back end in terms of prospects with Finn, Rielly, Blacker and Percy.


    But back on topic. I like Luongo quite a bit, but in all seriousness I wouldn't move Gardiner to get him. Gardiner and Rielly would be the untouchables (obviously Kessel, Phaneuf and guys like that won't be moved).
    "The way they play offense here is difficult for any quarterback," he said. "Every snap is an incredible decision. They're in a one-back offense, they can't run the ball against certain looks so they have to audible to some kind of a pass or a creative run to get away from trouble.
    "There's never a play in the game where Stafford can just turn around, hand the ball off and catch his breath. Every play he's researching the defense and they throw as much as anyone."


  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw View Post
    he what 8 more points then faulk? and 13 more then Cowen whose a stay at home defenceman. wasent exactly a strong class to lead
    In the second half of the season he was pro-rated to put up nearly 50 points. Strong class or not, that's pretty damn good for anyone, meanwhile, a rookie.

  8. #68
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    So I'm just curious what Leaf fans think a fair trade is for Luongo? Keep in mind the Canucks have talked to about 4 teams about him, they don't even have to trade him, though I'm sure they'd rather it,but they could trade him at the deadline and see if there's a team struggling in goal. The reason I'm asking is that everyone I talk to here doesn't want to give Vancouver anything really of value in return, they feel that the contract coming back is enough but I don't feel the same at all. IMO Luongo could be a top 5 goalie, he's got the talent level for it and really I don't find his contract that horrendous, I think everyone knows that he won't be playing after 40 anyway. So what is a #1 goalie worth to Toronto, one that is locked up and could be a career leaf tender, someone that could finally land Toronto into the post season by just being added to the team and a goalie who was thought of so highly in the dressingroom they named him captain? Getting to the post season could make Toronto an attractive place for free agents to play again, so what is he worth?
    Last edited by bsi; 10-24-2012 at 01:56 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    So I'm just curious what Leaf fans think a fair trade is for Luongo? Keep in mind the Canucks have talked to about 4 teams about him, they don't even have to trade him, though I'm sure they'd rather it,but they could trade him at the deadline and see if there's a team struggling in goal. The reason I'm asking is that everyone I talk to here doesn't want to give Vancouver anything really of value in return, they feel that the contract coming back is enough but I don't feel the same at all. IMO Luongo could be a top 5 goalie, he's got the talent level for it and really I don't find his contract that horrendous, I think everyone knows that he won't be playing after 40 anyway and if he is it'll be for a million a year anyway. So what is a #1 goalie worth to Toronto, one that is locked up and could be a career leaf tender, someone that could finally land Toronto into the post season by just being added to the team and a goalie who was thought of so highly in the dressingroom they named him captain? What is he worth?
    Keep in mind, on top of that contract, he's going on 33. This is a problem, how many good years are left in this guy? I'd be willing to start off talks revolving around guys like Kadri,Frattin etc.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Keep in mind, on top of that contract, he's going on 33. This is a problem, how many good years are left in this guy? I'd be willing to start off talks revolving around guys like Kadri,Frattin etc.
    Ya I realize he's 33, top goalies, especially large ones like Luongo can easily play to 38-40, so you get 5-7 good years out of him. That's a good window for a couple cup runs, gambling on Reimer or Scrivens for the next 5 years doesn't really sound like the best plan for Toronto IMO.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsi View Post
    Ya I realize he's 33, top goalies, especially large ones like Luongo can easily play to 38-40, so you get 5-7 good years out of him. That's a good window for a couple cup runs, gambling on Reimer or Scrivens for the next 5 years doesn't really sound like the best plan for Toronto IMO.
    1)You're assuming he'll be good till he's in his lates 30's
    2)You're assuming Reimer or Scrivens doesn't improve
    3)You're assuming that Luongo will be the only goalie available to us in the next 5 years

  12. #72
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    This is what is mind boggling. How in the hell are you starting with Kadri/Frattin? Luongo is a top 5 to 7 goalie in the league which is under a reasonable cap hit for the rest of his career. The contract is way overblown especially seeing as the bulk of the money was payed out in the first few years. Why would Luongo play for a million dollers at the end of career? He will retire before that point. If Luongo was in Toronto right now and we were trying to acquire him, the equivalent offer would be Zach Kassian, does that seem like a good starting point? Sure doesn't to me. If I were gillis I would be asking for minimum Gardiner or equivalent and a high draft pick as the pick would most likely be middle of the road if you had Luongo. There's no way the leafs miss the playoffs with him in net. The whole idea of a trade is you have to give value to get value.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    1)You're assuming he'll be good till he's in his lates 30's
    2)You're assuming Reimer or Scrivens doesn't improve
    3)You're assuming that Luongo will be the only goalie available to us in the next 5 years
    Yes. But 1) what gives us any other idea that what I'm assuming isn't true? We've seen a host of future goalies fail in Toronto.(2) I really don't think Burke has 2 years left let alone 5 years to figure it out and (3) What other current bonifide #1 goalie would be available to the Leafs in the next year or two?
    I guess the reason I'm curious is that I find that Leaf fans in my area really don't want to give up anything for him, they just think throwing Mike Komisarek or Mathew Lombardi is enough to get it done, I don't feel it is. Having said that I think you're suggestion of starting with Kadri or Frattin is a good starting point, I think it needs more however, but that's just my opinion
    Last edited by bsi; 10-24-2012 at 02:23 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    While I won't sit here and say Gardiner will be in top ____ I will say that he led all rookie defensemen in scoring last year and made it look pretty effortless. In a full NHL season, 50 points is attainable without question for him which would put him beside anyone not named Karlsson. Scary thing is, we just drafted Morgan Rielly who should be better than Gardiner and may even surpass Dougie Hamilton among the top defensive prospect lists. We'll see.
    I would not put Rielly in the same class as Hamilton. I don't want to go on about that though simply because there's no way to do it without sounding like a homer. And you're totally right 50 points is attainable.. just like it's attainable for guys like Mike Green and Dennis Wideman... Offense and to note, I wouldn't trade anyone drafted top 10 this year for Gardiner. Reinhardt, Murray, and Dumba are all better than Rielly too imo, and Rielly is also better than Gardiner by a good margin lol.


    lol, small kid got tripped by a tuba player

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pfeifer View Post
    This is what is mind boggling. How in the hell are you starting with Kadri/Frattin? Luongo is a top 5 to 7 goalie in the league which is under a reasonable cap hit for the rest of his career. The contract is way overblown especially seeing as the bulk of the money was payed out in the first few years. Why would Luongo play for a million dollers at the end of career? He will retire before that point. If Luongo was in Toronto right now and we were trying to acquire him, the equivalent offer would be Zach Kassian, does that seem like a good starting point? Sure doesn't to me. If I were gillis I would be asking for minimum Gardiner or equivalent and a high draft pick as the pick would most likely be middle of the road if you had Luongo. There's no way the leafs miss the playoffs with him in net. The whole idea of a trade is you have to give value to get value.
    I hate how people constantly undervalue Luongo because they think his contract is "bad". When he is really on his game, he is a top 3 goalie still in my opinion. He is locked up for the rest of his career so its not like he is just a short term trade piece. I assume he can still give 5-6 very good years before he starts to fade. I don't see any reason for it to be farfetched that we ask for something like Gardiner, another top prospect, and 1st round pick. All the talk a few pages ago about Bozak being the center piece is pathetic. A mid 20s guy who would be our 3rd line center and is a free agent next year who will probably never score anything higher than like 55 points max is not what we need to look for. We need a young forward who can be top line in 2-3 years or a young d-man who can be top 4 in 2-3 years as a center piece. Top goalies are hard to come by, and Toronto should know that better than anyone over the past decade, and Luongo is a top goalie.
    TAKE PRIDE

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