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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    you realize that if Cabrera had been in the NL this year, he wouldn't have won the Triple Crown?

    Would he still be the MVP to you if he didn't win?

    Or if Curtis Granderson had hit 2 more home runs? Or if Trout had literally 3 less outs on the season.

    He wouldn't have won the Triple Crown if he posted this season in any of the last 10 seasons, would he still be the MVP?

    He wouldn't have the triple crown. Would he still be worthy of the MVP to you?

    What about the fact that Cabrera hit better last year than he did this year? Did he deserve the award last season?


    You have to realize that this is not a hitting award. It's the most valuable player to the league award. It goes to the player that was the most valuable in every regard of the game.

    To choose Cabrera over Trout is to ignore defense and base running, and to put all of your stock in two things. The sentiment of the Triple Crown, which only measures 3 stats which don't tell you very much about a player. And that the Tigers, who had a worse record than the Angels, made the playoffs because they were in a weaker division.


    Also, no player can lead his team to the post-season by himself. It's lunacy to say one can. Cabrera had 11% of his teams plate appearances this season and only had a putout in an average of 4 times per game.

    That's 23 outs every game that the Tigers had to make that Cabrera had nothing to do with, and 5500 PA that Cabrera had nothing to do with.

    Literally
    Cabrera 697 PA
    Tigers 6119 PA


    But he carried them to the post-season BY HIMSELF?

    It's impossible, no player in baseball can carry a team to the post-season. If you want to say they can though, then shouldn't Evan Longoria get the AL MVP last season for walking his team into the post-season on game 162 of last year?

    Austin Jackson, Doug Fister, Justin Verlander your CY Young winner, Alex Avila, and others helped carry this team.......oh and Prince Fielder.
    why would you even say that? if cabrera played 50 years ago, he wouldnt have lead in any major offensive category. thats not my problem, because the fact of the matter is he did win a triple crown.

    end of story. that cant be taken away. and using sabermetrics doesnt take that away from him because that is not the only thing ppl use to vote for mvps.
    i dont think you guys realize how crazy it is to lead your team in every offensive category except obp, and to also come clutch in key moments especially during the last few weeks of the season when it looked like the tigers were out of contention.

    i get it, you guys love advanced stats, and that trout had a phenomenal season, and he should be duly rewarded, trust me i respect that, but im sorry, cabrera lead that team in rbis, hrs, batting average, slugging.

    if that means nothing to you than obv this discussion is pointless.


    LETS GO HEAT




  2. #47
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    and historically that division has always been a joke, the A's were never a threat until they came out of nowhere this season.
    i am not saying the central is any better, but you get my point.


    LETS GO HEAT




  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    explain pls. they had a solid closer, and albert pujols was the main offensive arsenal. so where exactly would the angels be worse off than tigers if you remove trout and cabrera?
    Trout was significantly more valuable offensively than Pujols this season

    By a good amount.


    you are removing each player as if they are sitting in a vacuum, as if each team was neutral without both players, and that each player is providing them some exact amount of value above and beyond that neutral amount

    That isn't the case. Neither player should be rewarded nor punished based on who else is on their team. This is an individual award, team value and team accomplishments mean absolutely nothing.

    But just to clarify

    With Mike Trout in the lineup the Angels went 81-58 for a .583 winning percentage
    With Miguel Cabrera in the lineup the Tigers went 87-74 for a .540 winning percentage

    It's silly to withhold an individual award from a player because his team didn't pitch as well or the other 8 guys on his team didn't hit as well or play as good of defense as a different players team.

    And all of this still glosses over the fact that the Angels had a better record than the Tigers, and only missed the playoffs vs the Tigers because the Tigers were lucky to play in a division without any 90 game winners, while the Agnels were looking up at 2.

    Trout was the best player in the American League this season. Rather easily too.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 10-18-2012 at 05:12 PM. Reason: grammar error

  4. #49
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    ill give you that the wins and losses isnt fair because of the pitching, but if you go by defense only that seems rather unfair especially when historically the al mvp was always basically an offensive outburst award. defense was never looked upon.

    Im confused, because usually the person with the most hrs win.

    they never look at sabermetrics.. explain in further detail, because i myself dont look at sabermetrics, and im curious as to why you guys only look at that.


    LETS GO HEAT




  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    DRS

    Remember, it is compared to the players contemporaries at their position.

    Not just who is the better defender overall.

    Braun compared to the league average left fielder this year saved 7 runs defensively

    Posey, compared to the league average catcher, was basically a neutral defender. 0 Defensive Runs saved at Catcher, and a negative 1 at first base.

    Remember, he is being compared to all those defensive backup catchers, Yadier Molina, Miguel Montero, Matt Wieters and so forth.

    He is considered a league average defensive catcher, to slightly better than league average.



    Not according to a number of metrics

    Framing, Caught Stealing, blocking pitches, wild pitches and passed balls and the number saved

    He has improved defensively, but there are a lot of guys ahead of him still defensively.




    you have to remember that you are compared to your position, Braun isn't just automatically compared to Posey. They play different positions, that's why below that there is the positive 20 runs that Posey gets for positional adjustment

    Braun saved 7 more runs than the league average left fielder
    Posey saved 0 runs more than the league average catcher

    And then Catchers get a positional adjustment of +20 over a left fielder, which is worth about 2 wins by itself.

    Braun created 10 more runs offensively
    Braun created 10 more runs in regards to base running
    Braun saved 7 more runs for his position
    Posey get a positional adjustment of 20 runs

    Small edge to Braun


    I hate that you are making me defend Ryan Braun who I ****ing hate

    I understand what you're saying, but this is what your numbers come down to:

    The difference between Posey and Braun when you factor in defense and position adjustment is virtually 13 runs difference, in favor of Posey.

    I just do not agree with that. I think their is much more value in having the type of bat Posey brings playing catcher while also being a league average level (your words) defender over a very very slightly better offensive player at left field who is a good outfielder.

    You have almost all catchers having a 115 wRC+ or under....only a select few are above that....while left fielders are pretty much all at or above that aside from a select few.

    The difference in value both in terms of defensive value per their respective positions and offensive value per their respective positions is much more than 13 total runs difference over a course of a year.

    It's super, super super rare to have a catcher have that type of bat who is also competent on defense.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    why would you even say that? if cabrera played 50 years ago, he wouldnt have lead in any major offensive category. thats not my problem, because the fact of the matter is he did win a triple crown.
    Which is a pretty pointless platitude

    Ted Williams won it twice, and in the two years he won, he didn't win the MVP.

    It's a neat accomplishment, but it depends on the league as a whole playing at a specific level in very specific stats that don't measure much and saying it means something.

    It's like saying Trout should win a Triple Crown for leading the league in Stolen Bases, Runs Scored, and OPS+

    It's just picking 3 stats and saying they mean something.

    But it ignores what they actually measure.

    end of story. that cant be taken away. and using sabermetrics doesnt take that away from him because that is not the only thing ppl use to vote for mvps.
    No one is trying to take anything away from him. He won the Triple Crown

    It does not mean he should win the MVP. They are separate accomplishments.


    i dont think you guys realize how crazy it is to lead your team in every offensive category except obp, and to also come clutch in key moments especially during the last few weeks of the season when it looked like the tigers were out of contention.
    Trout did it too, you do realize that right?

    i get it, you guys love advanced stats, and that trout had a phenomenal season, and he should be duly rewarded, trust me i respect that, but im sorry, cabrera lead that team in rbis, hrs, batting average, slugging.
    What about defense? What about base running? The MVP is not just a hitting award, and the stats you just shared are hopelessly flawed, and it's easy to explain how and why.

    It's crazy that Cabrera was better last year than he was this season, but because he won the Triple Crown, everyone thinks he deserves the MVP now, but not last year.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    and historically that division has always been a joke, the A's were never a threat until they came out of nowhere this season.
    i am not saying the central is any better, but you get my point.
    So why are you rewarding Cabrera for being in the playoffs and punishing Trout for not being in the playoffs?

    If there were no divisions, Trout would have been in the playoffs, and Cabrera would not.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    So why are you rewarding Cabrera for being in the playoffs and punishing Trout for not being in the playoffs?

    If there were no divisions, Trout would have been in the playoffs, and Cabrera would not.
    oh no i wasnt punishing, i was just emphasizing how those stats dont include the players ability to perform while under intense pressure. the last few weeks the tigers were fighting back in and cabrera was on an absolute tear. he wasnt in contention for the triple crown until his tear.

    i do see what you are saying about trout tho. and pujols lead the angels in rbis, and tied with trout for hrs btw, but what trout did is phenomenal. i still dont think its mvp caliber because of cabreras season and value to the tigers, but your points are def valid, and if either won i personally wouldnt have a problem.

    if you could also explain what sabermetrics involve so i have a better idea and i may be comfortable in using it to judging some players, i would be very grateful. thanks


    LETS GO HEAT




  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    ill give you that the wins and losses isnt fair because of the pitching, but if you go by defense only that seems rather unfair especially when historically the al mvp was always basically an offensive outburst award. defense was never looked upon.
    Since when?

    We have several fantastic defensive players that edged out the award over others.

    Plus, you shouldn't reward based on history being positive or negative. That's appealing to an authority that existed before today's information and knowledge.

    That's like saying we should elect a president now based on what John Tyler did. It's just silly.

    But to add to all of this.

    Both players were fairly equal offensively, edge goes to Cabrera.

    But Trout saved 24 runs defensively, at at centerfield.

    Cabrera saved a negative 4 runs defensively, at third base

    This is a 30 run difference. Cabrera had to really out hit trout to make up those 30 runs.

    As for offensive production

    Cabrera created 137 runs this season
    Trout created 121 runs

    So +16 for Cabrera

    But he is nearly 30 runs worse defensively, and another 15 runs worse in regards to base running.

    To give Cabrera the MVP is to completely ignore that base running and defense matter in the game of baseball.


    Im confused, because usually the person with the most hrs win.
    What?

    That's not true at all.

    The last time the MVP winner lead the league in home runs was Pujols in 09, and before that it was A-Rod in 07

    That's 2 of the last 10 MVP awards


    they never look at sabermetrics.. explain in further detail, because i myself dont look at sabermetrics, and im curious as to why you guys only look at that.
    It's simply more information, and plenty of voters like Rob Neyer look at Sabr-metrics.

    It's more information, that's all advanced statistics are. More information.

    If you don't look very deep, Cabrera was on a playoff team, and he won the Triple Crown. So on the surface. He sounds like the MVP

    But Trout played a harder defensive position, played it vastly better (gold glover vs an iron glover), was a great base runner, only lacked in RBI's because he hit leadoff vs batting with Austin Jackson on base every other plate appearance, and when you adjust to the values of each base hit, Trout is much closer offensively to Cabrera than people might realize (i.e. all those triples have a lot of value, as well the unintentional walks).

    Sabr-stats is just more information. Love to have more information when making any kind of decision.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but this is what your numbers come down to:

    The difference between Posey and Braun when you factor in defense and position adjustment is virtually 13 runs difference, in favor of Posey.

    I just do not agree with that. I think their is much more value in having the type of bat Posey brings playing catcher while also being a league average level (your words) defender over a very very slightly better offensive player at left field who is a good outfielder.
    That's basically 1.3 wins that it gives Posey over Braun, that's significant. Especially when an all-star caliber player is just a 5 WAR player.

    But I have long felt that catchers positional adjustment was never factored in correctly.

    It's super, super super rare to have a catcher have that type of bat who is also competent on defense.
    What about Yadier?

    Would you place Yadier over Braun for MVP?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    oh no i wasnt punishing, i was just emphasizing how those stats dont include the players ability to perform while under intense pressure. the last few weeks the tigers were fighting back in and cabrera was on an absolute tear. he wasnt in contention for the triple crown until his tear.
    WPA
    Win Probability Added
    this is the cumulative measure of how much an individual helps his team win based on the situations they are put in

    For example, Matt Carpenter had the highest WPA in yesterday's Cards/Giants game with a .210 because his 2 run home run took the Cards from a deficit to the lead. It's completely based on the teams win probability when the batter comes to the plate vs what the batters teams win probability is after his plate appearance

    Trout - 5.32
    Cabrera - 4.82

    He was more 'clutch' this season than Cabrera.



    if you could also explain what sabermetrics involve so i have a better idea and i may be comfortable in using it to judging some players, i would be very grateful. thanks
    We have a whole sub section dedicated to sabr-metrics, but I invite you to learn as much as you can. It's great information, and it's never-ending. There is so much fascinating information available to you, as well several great websites.

    fangraphs
    baseball-info solutions
    Baseball-reference has a glossary section
    Hardball times
    baseball prospectus
    to name a few


    Some good starter stats would be wOBA (weighted on base average) you can learn about it here
    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/ind.../offense/woba/
    and wRC+

    Use fangraphs glossary section right there to learn more. That can help lead you in the right direction, and use Fangraphs Leaders board page there to see

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    That's basically 1.3 wins that it gives Posey over Braun, that's significant. Especially when an all-star caliber player is just a 5 WAR player.

    But I have long felt that catchers positional adjustment was never factored in correctly.



    What about Yadier?

    Would you place Yadier over Braun for MVP?
    Yadier is clearly a tier, arguably two below as a complete offensive player.

    However Yadier is probably the most valuable defender in the league, so that makes up for some of it, if not all of it.

    If you told me before the year that I'd get this years Molina or I could have this years Braun, I'd flip a coin and be happy with either choice.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Not according to a number of metrics

    Framing, Caught Stealing, blocking pitches, wild pitches and passed balls and the number saved
    Posey has less passed balls and WP than Molina, the top defender in the game. Posey is definitely top 10. Using CS out of context isn't going to make your case.

    Would you trust a blind scout? Of course you wouldn't but that's what you do when you simply go by stats
    Splifftone, OptiskeptSF and Ciaban have a lot in common

  14. #59
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    AL MVP
    1 Mike Trout
    2 Miguel Cabrera
    3 Robinson Cano
    4 Adrian Beltre
    5 Justin Verlander
    6 Felix Hernandez
    7 Prince Fielder
    8 Austin Jackson
    9 David Price
    10 Edwin Encarnacion


    NL MVP
    1 Buster Posey
    2 Ryan Braun
    3 R.A. Dickey
    4 Andrew McCutchen
    5 David Wright
    6 Yadier Molina
    7 Clayton Kershaw
    8 Chase Headley
    9 Gio Gonzalez
    10 A.J. Ellis


    AL Cy Young
    1 Justin Verlander
    2 Felix Hernandez
    3 David Price
    4 Jered Weaver
    5 Chris Sale


    NL Cy Young
    1 R.A. Dickey
    2 Clayton Kershaw
    3 Gio Gonzalez
    4 Matt Cain
    5 Johnny Cueto

    AL Roy
    1 Mike Trout
    2 Yu Darvish
    3 Yoennis Cespedes

    NL Roy
    1 Bryce Harper
    2 Wade Miley
    3 Norichika Aoki
    We're better than you
    And we know it


  15. #60
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    Again, if you don't send me your ballot in a PM, it will not count.

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