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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    you clearly lack common sense, there is a reason why all mlb analysts disagree with you, because your post along with ur points would all be bs.
    your garbage sentiment about better record when they had one more game won is just stupid. why not give the mvp to cano than since the yanks have the better record from all teams involved. derp.

    read my post u idiot, and dont ever post anything stupid and direct it towards me again.
    Your aggressiveness and name calling just proves that you lack any knowledge outside of what most 10 year old baseball fans posses. I will gladly have a discussion with you once you bring your baseball knowledge up to a level that extends beyond baseball cards and SporsCenter.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.

    Masahiro Tanaka

    11-1| 99.2 IP| 10.20 K/9| 1.44 BB/9| 0.90 HR/9| 1.99 ERA| 2.70 FIP| 2.32 xFIP| 2.9 fWAR

  2. #32
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    wow you guys cant be serious lol


    LETS GO HEAT




  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    i was pointing out the head to head of cabrera's value to the tigers compared to trout's value to the angels.
    advanced stats is just one aspect you use to judge who wins the mvp, not the only thing. i get it that trout had a historical season, but its nothin compared to Cabrera's season.

    triple crown, and lead his team by HIMSELF to the post season. cabrera is not a defensive player, trout is a much better defensive player. however i think we all know who is the more Valuable player to their team, and that is Cabrera.

    just sayin.
    Well the hitting triple crown has been achieved 16 times in MLB history, Trout had the 2nd best rookie season of all time.

    I mean how many guys hit over .320, have 30 homers, and steal almost 50 bases from the leadoff spot in their first season. That's much more historical than what Miggy has accomplished.

    It might be hard to believe but as great as Miggy has been his fWAR was higher last year (7.1 to 6.9 this year).

    He didn't lead that team by himself to the postseason either, they are a very good team that just took a long time to kick it into gear. They have very good SP, and good hitting outside of Miggy.

    He was a major catalyst but no teams win on the accomplishments of one player.

    Again, i don't know how you could punish Trout for playing in a better division like some of the other posters mentioned.

    The Angels did end up finishing with a better record and would have made the playoffs most likely if Trout had been there from the start of the season.

    Saying that, team accomplishments have very little to do with the MVP (except when players are comparably valuable which in this case they aren't)
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-18-2012 at 12:16 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees 1903 View Post
    Your aggressiveness and name calling just proves that you lack any knowledge outside of what most 10 year old baseball fans posses. I will gladly have a discussion with you once you bring your baseball knowledge up to a level that extends beyond baseball cards and SporsCenter.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.
    aww okie dokie.


    LETS GO HEAT




  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Well the hitting triple crown has been achieved 16 times in MLB history, Trout had the 2nd best rookie season of all time.

    I mean how many guys hit over .320, have 30 homers, and steal almost 50 bases from the leadoff spot in their first season. That's much more historical than what Miggy has accomplished.

    It might be hard to believe but as great as Miggy has been his fWAR was higher last year (7.1 to 6.9 this year).

    He didn't lead that team by himself to the postseason either, they are a very good team that just took a long time to kick it into gear. They have very good SP, and good hitting outside of Miggy.

    Again i don't know how you could punish Trout for playing in better division like some of the other posters mentioned.

    The Angels did end up finishing with a better record and would have made the playoffs most likely if Trout had been there from the start of the season.
    hmm angels had a 3 game lead over the tigers during the final few weeks of the season, and cabrera absolutely demolished the tigers into contention the post season. I do understand trout went off, but there is an award for that, rookie of the year.

    having the 2nd best rookie season means absolutely nothin to me, because it is nothin compared to being the mvp. he didnt even lead major offensive categories on his own team..

    that is my problem. you can look at advanced stats all you want, along with defensive capabilities, there is no denying that trout is a stud, but cabrera carried that offensively challeneged tigers squad to the playoffs..

    you guys make very very good arguments, and have presented a case, however, its still clear to me, cabrera is the most valuable player in the AL..
    I get it that all the sabersmetric support trout, and trout steals bases, he has historic numbers for leadoff hitters, thats all swell and dandy, noone is denying that. and i really hope he continues this pace, because i enjoy every second of it, but its undebatable as to who is the more vaulable player to their respective teams.

    i can only imagine how pathetic the tigers would be without cabrera.


    LETS GO HEAT




  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    i can only imagine how pathetic the tigers would be without cabrera.
    Well if you are going to use that criteria alone, the Tigers would have won 81 games without Cabrera (using WAR neutral players as replacements)

    The Angels would have won 78.

    Trout is still the more valuable player even if you are using W-L.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-18-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    hmm angels had a 3 game lead over the tigers during the final few weeks of the season, and cabrera absolutely demolished the tigers into contention the post season. I do understand trout went off, but there is an award for that, rookie of the year.

    having the 2nd best rookie season means absolutely nothin to me, because it is nothin compared to being the mvp. he didnt even lead major offensive categories on his own team..
    When did a player not qualify for both the MVP and ROTY btw?

    Trout did lead his team in every meaningful offensive category btw, he lead in BABIP, ISO, OBP, SLG, wOBA, WRC+, etc etc.

    He also lead the league in runs scored (126) too having only played 139 games.

    It's all about perspective also, yeah he didn't lead the team in traditional stats but again he was hitting like this from the leadoff spot where RBI chances are not as regular. (Not to mention RBIS are a stat of opportunity)

    He was the MVP from the very point he came up this season.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-18-2012 at 12:38 PM.

  8. #38
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    Obviously the MVP is a hitting contest. Everyone knows that.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    Wait, I specifically remember JEFFY saying Braun shouldn't win the MVP award, and that was back when he had a moderate lead on major categories over everyone....and now Brauns numbers are a lot closer to his competition for the award, Jeffy wants to give him the award?

    Based on what? I think it's pretty clear Posey is more valuable to his team this year than Braun was to his.

    They were virtually equal offensive players taking out positional value, so factoring in you're getting that type of offense from a catcher vs a left fielder.....much more value there.

    And Posey plays catcher, the most demanding/valuable defensive position in baseball and he plays it well....compared to left field one of the least demanding/valuable.

    I'd LOVE to hear Jeffy defend Braun over Posey.
    I said he WON'T win, I think he deserves to win.

    I hate Braun, he is one of my least favorite players in baseball. But he deserves to win.

    there is also almost no way he does actually win. Voters are pissed about last year, and 'he wasn't on a playoff team' which is a joke.

    And everyone loves Posey. Posey is going to win, and honestly, the differences in the two statistically are still rather close.

    I voted for Braun, but I hate Braun. He won't win, but I would argue that he deserves to win.

    Braun saved 7 runs defensively, and he hit slightly better than Posey, who was mostly a neutral defender at a more demanding position.

    The only thing Posey has over Braun is positional adjustment, that's it.


    They are very close, but Braun edges out Posey.


    Here is a simple explanation
    Braun created 10 more runs offensively than Posey
    Saved 7 more runs than Posey
    And loses about 19 runs for positional adjustment
    The difference in the two is quite literally baserunning, which Posey was a negative 5 runs, and Braun was a positive 4 runs.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 10-18-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  10. #40
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    The improvement made by Austin Jackson is insane.

    **** you

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    ..... without cabrera, would the tigers reach the post season, yes or no?

    they finished only 3 games ahead of the white sox.

    so pls answer the question..
    Without Trout, the Angels are below .500 and are not playing meangingful baseball in Sept.


    You are literally punishing Trout for his team being in the American League West and rewarding Cabrera for being in the American League Central

    The Tigers had a worse record with Cabrera in their lineup than the Angels had with Trout in their lineup.

    It's an individual award, and you are letting team success decide the outcome of an individual

    And yes, the Tigers had a worse record than the Angels, but making the playoffs should somehow matter in this individual award?

    Remove Trout from the Angels, and their season would have been over in August. I guess he didn't pitch well enough to win the MVP

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Im_in_Mia_bish View Post
    i was pointing out the head to head of cabrera's value to the tigers compared to trout's value to the angels.
    advanced stats is just one aspect you use to judge who wins the mvp, not the only thing. i get it that trout had a historical season, but its nothin compared to Cabrera's season.

    triple crown, and lead his team by HIMSELF to the post season. cabrera is not a defensive player, trout is a much better defensive player. however i think we all know who is the more Valuable player to their team, and that is Cabrera.

    just sayin.
    you realize that if Cabrera had been in the NL this year, he wouldn't have won the Triple Crown?

    Would he still be the MVP to you if he didn't win?

    Or if Curtis Granderson had hit 2 more home runs? Or if Trout had literally 3 less outs on the season.

    He wouldn't have won the Triple Crown if he posted this season in any of the last 10 seasons, would he still be the MVP?

    He wouldn't have the triple crown. Would he still be worthy of the MVP to you?

    What about the fact that Cabrera hit better last year than he did this year? Did he deserve the award last season?


    You have to realize that this is not a hitting award. It's the most valuable player to the league award. It goes to the player that was the most valuable in every regard of the game.

    To choose Cabrera over Trout is to ignore defense and base running, and to put all of your stock in two things. The sentiment of the Triple Crown, which only measures 3 stats which don't tell you very much about a player. And that the Tigers, who had a worse record than the Angels, made the playoffs because they were in a weaker division.


    Also, no player can lead his team to the post-season by himself. It's lunacy to say one can. Cabrera had 11% of his teams plate appearances this season and only had a putout in an average of 4 times per game.

    That's 23 outs every game that the Tigers had to make that Cabrera had nothing to do with, and 5500 PA that Cabrera had nothing to do with.

    Literally
    Cabrera 697 PA
    Tigers 6119 PA


    But he carried them to the post-season BY HIMSELF?

    It's impossible, no player in baseball can carry a team to the post-season. If you want to say they can though, then shouldn't Evan Longoria get the AL MVP last season for walking his team into the post-season on game 162 of last year?

    Austin Jackson, Doug Fister, Justin Verlander your CY Young winner, Alex Avila, and others helped carry this team.......oh and Prince Fielder.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 10-18-2012 at 03:37 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I said he WON'T win, I think he deserves to win.

    I hate Braun, he is one of my least favorite players in baseball. But he deserves to win.

    there is also almost no way he does actually win. Voters are pissed about last year, and 'he wasn't on a playoff team' which is a joke.

    And everyone loves Posey. Posey is going to win, and honestly, the differences in the two statistically are still rather close.

    I voted for Braun, but I hate Braun. He won't win, but I would argue that he deserves to win.

    Braun saved 7 runs defensively, and he hit slightly better than Posey, who was mostly a neutral defender at a more demanding position.

    The only thing Posey has over Braun is positional adjustment, that's it.


    They are very close, but Braun edges out Posey.


    Here is a simple explanation
    Braun created 10 more runs offensively than Posey
    Saved 7 more runs than Posey
    And loses about 19 runs for positional adjustment
    The difference in the two is quite literally baserunning, which Posey was a negative 5 runs, and Braun was a positive 4 runs.
    I don't agree at all that he saved 7 more runs than Posey. What's that even based on? UZR?

    Posey being an average catcher (He's not, he's a top 10 defensive catcher) while Braun being a very good left fielder. How in the world does Braun save 7 more runs? I don't get that at all when catcher is arguably the most important defensive position and Left Field arguably the least important.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    I don't agree at all that he saved 7 more runs than Posey. What's that even based on? UZR?
    DRS

    Remember, it is compared to the players contemporaries at their position.

    Not just who is the better defender overall.

    Braun compared to the league average left fielder this year saved 7 runs defensively

    Posey, compared to the league average catcher, was basically a neutral defender. 0 Defensive Runs saved at Catcher, and a negative 1 at first base.

    Remember, he is being compared to all those defensive backup catchers, Yadier Molina, Miguel Montero, Matt Wieters and so forth.

    He is considered a league average defensive catcher, to slightly better than league average.


    Posey being an average catcher (He's not, he's a top 10 defensive catcher)
    Not according to a number of metrics

    Framing, Caught Stealing, blocking pitches, wild pitches and passed balls and the number saved

    He has improved defensively, but there are a lot of guys ahead of him still defensively.


    while Braun being a very good left fielder. How in the world does Braun save 7 more runs? I don't get that at all when catcher is arguably the most important defensive position and Left Field arguably the least important.
    you have to remember that you are compared to your position, Braun isn't just automatically compared to Posey. They play different positions, that's why below that there is the positive 20 runs that Posey gets for positional adjustment

    Braun saved 7 more runs than the league average left fielder
    Posey saved 0 runs more than the league average catcher

    And then Catchers get a positional adjustment of +20 over a left fielder, which is worth about 2 wins by itself.

    Braun created 10 more runs offensively
    Braun created 10 more runs in regards to base running
    Braun saved 7 more runs for his position
    Posey get a positional adjustment of 20 runs

    Small edge to Braun


    I hate that you are making me defend Ryan Braun who I ****ing hate

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Without Trout, the Angels are below .500 and are not playing meangingful baseball in Sept.


    You are literally punishing Trout for his team being in the American League West and rewarding Cabrera for being in the American League Central

    The Tigers had a worse record with Cabrera in their lineup than the Angels had with Trout in their lineup.

    It's an individual award, and you are letting team success decide the outcome of an individual

    And yes, the Tigers had a worse record than the Angels, but making the playoffs should somehow matter in this individual award?

    Remove Trout from the Angels, and their season would have been over in August. I guess he didn't pitch well enough to win the MVP
    explain pls. they had a solid closer, and albert pujols was the main offensive arsenal. so where exactly would the angels be worse off than tigers if you remove trout and cabrera?


    LETS GO HEAT




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