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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTL View Post
    Braun and Posey are both deserving. And writers voted for Bonds multiple times knowing he was cheating so don't see it being out of the realm of possibility he gets voted again.
    Considering they gave him the award last year for making the playoffs, it's hard to think they will give it to him over Posey a guy who made the playoffs vs Braun whose team missed it badly.

    Then again, the voters logic is consistently horrendous, so who knows.

    Posey will likely win. But my vote would have been for Braun, and I hate Braun.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Considering they gave him the award last year for making the playoffs, it's hard to think they will give it to him over Posey a guy who made the playoffs vs Braun whose team missed it badly.

    Then again, the voters logic is consistently horrendous, so who knows.

    Posey will likely win. But my vote would have been for Braun, and I hate Braun.
    Why would you have voted for Braun over Posey?

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    Why would you have voted for Braun over Posey?
    He created more value this season.

    I explained in the last thread, but basically Braun's net run value was slightly higher than Posey's, cumulative with his WAR, WPA, and net run values, all combined, Braun held the edge on Posey.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    He created more value this season.

    I explained in the last thread, but basically Braun's net run value was slightly higher than Posey's, cumulative with his WAR, WPA, and net run values, all combined, Braun held the edge on Posey.
    I just think that Posey put up very similar offensive stats to Braun and played the harder position.

  5. #140
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    So Cano, Beltre, Hamilton, Miggy, and Trout are the finalists for the AL MVP

    Braun, Headley, McCutchen, Molina, and Posey for the NL MVP
    Yo Soy Fiesta


  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    I just think that Posey put up very similar offensive stats to Braun and played the harder position.
    And it is very close.

    Braun created more offense though, and he was no slouch defensively, which helps make up the difference in positional adjustment.


    Braun created 133 Runs offensively, to Posey's 114
    He was a positive 7 runs defensive, and Posey was a negative 1 run defensive
    Braun had a +1.4 runs base running, Posey a negative 3.9

    You have about a 20 run adjustment for position in Posey's favor

    Posey has a slight baby edge in rWAR, fWAR, and WPA

    It's very close.

  7. #142
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    You could easily argue that the formula doesn't give Posey a big enough advantage for positional adjustments.

    You try playing catcher for 130+ games. It's the most physically demanding, and most important defensive position in baseball. Left field is among the least important and least physically demanding.

    Having a Catcher produce the way Posey produced with the bat, and Posey being a top 10 overall defensive catcher.... it's more valuable to a team than a good fielding, big bat left fielder.

    And before you bring up that -1 run for Posey....that's a completely subjective stat. It's not concrete factual at all.
    Last edited by natsbats; 11-08-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    You could easily argue that the formula doesn't give Posey a big enough advantage for positional adjustments.

    You try playing catcher for 130+ games. It's the most physically demanding, and most important defensive position in baseball. Left field is among the least important and least physically demanding.

    Having a Catcher produce the way Posey produced with the bat, and Posey being a top 10 overall defensive catcher.... it's more valuable to a team than a good fielding, big bat left fielder.

    And before you bring up that -1 run for Posey....that's a completely subjective stat. It's not concrete factual at all.
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  9. #144
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    BTW, I heard you say before that 10 runs roughly equal 1.0 WAR.....

    How come Bruan created 133 runs offensively, 1.4 runs base running, and 7 runs on defense..... roughly 140 runs....I know he gets dinged for playing left field, but he ended up with a WAR below 8....certainly he didn't get dinged 60 runs for playing left field.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Just watch him behind the plate.

    He has a great arm.

    Frames pitches well (I believe there is a site that analysis's this)

    Blocks pitches amazing. Only 2 passed balls all year.

    The staff excluding Lincecum & Zito feel 100 percent confident in what he calls.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    You could easily argue that the formula doesn't give Posey a big enough advantage for positional adjustments.

    You try playing catcher for 130+ games. It's the most physically demanding, and most important defensive position in baseball. Left field is among the least important and least physically demanding.

    Having a Catcher produce the way Posey produced with the bat, and Posey being a top 10 overall defensive catcher.... it's more valuable to a team than a good fielding, big bat left fielder.

    And before you bring up that -1 run for Posey....that's a completely subjective stat. It's not concrete factual at all.
    Please show me how Defensive Runs Saved is a subjective stat


    And he had a 0 behind the plate (i.e. league average) and was a -1 at first.

    And he is also, not elite at framing pitches. He is also, league average at that, throwing out runners. He is very good at blocking pitches, but that's really the only thing he is exceptional at at this point.

    In a couple of years from now he will probably reach his elite point defensively, he is still improving.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    BTW, I heard you say before that 10 runs roughly equal 1.0 WAR.....

    How come Bruan created 133 runs offensively, 1.4 runs base running, and 7 runs on defense..... roughly 140 runs....I know he gets dinged for playing left field, but he ended up with a WAR below 8....certainly he didn't get dinged 60 runs for playing left field.
    WAR is based on the league average, Runs Created is just the overall net runs created.


    He created about 135 runs offensively, and was about neutral in value on defense.

    That doesn't mean he was a 13.5 WAR player. WAR is based on the league average (or comparatively) and net runs created is simply the amount of runs created by the player.

    The league average base line replacement level player essentially creates about 50 runs +/- every season (or they should be expected to do so).

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    Just watch him behind the plate.

    He has a great arm.

    Frames pitches well (I believe there is a site that analysis's this)

    Blocks pitches amazing. Only 2 passed balls all year.

    The staff excluding Lincecum & Zito feel 100 percent confident in what he calls.
    You have to remember that defensive metrics compare him to the rest of the league defensively, and there are defensive only catchers in this league.

    He isn't to either Molina's level yet (that's okay, they are the best) and he is behind some others like Ryan Hanigan and more still. These are guys that are in the league only to catch, their offensive values mean very little.

    Posey is the best offensive catcher in the game, and at this point, a neutral defensive catcher who is likely to be above average within a year or two if he isn't there already. This season, he produced about league average defensively. He was actually very close to Molina in overall value on the year. But offensive value is worth more than defensive value, so he has the edge. There is no shame in this, but Posey is not a top defensive catcher just yet.

  14. #149
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    How is runs saved not subjective?

    Fan graphs has him at +7 for his defense..... obviously this fits my argument more, but that's a stat I refuse to use too because it's flawed.

    There will never be a true representation through stats of all the catchers duties. They are too intricate.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by natsbats View Post
    How is runs saved not subjective?

    Fan graphs has him at +7 for his defense..... obviously this fits my argument more, but that's a stat I refuse to use too because it's flawed.

    There will never be a true representation through stats of all the catchers duties. They are too intricate.
    Fangraphs is who shares the Defensive Runs Saved stat, you are looking at UZR, they are two very different stats.


    It isn't subjective, it's calculated by StatCorner and is measurable.

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