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View Poll Results: Name your top 3 live ball SP's all time from list

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Pete Alexander

    0 0%
  • Roger Clemens

    13 50.00%
  • Bob Gibson

    7 26.92%
  • Lefty Grove

    2 7.69%
  • Randy Johnson

    16 61.54%
  • Walter Johnson

    7 26.92%
  • Greg Maddux

    14 53.85%
  • Pedro Martinez

    10 38.46%
  • Tom Seaver

    4 15.38%
  • Warren Spahn

    1 3.85%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. #1
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    Top live ball era SP (u pick top 3)

    The poll includes Pete Alexander and WalterJohnson who crossed over from the dead ball era, but not Cy Young. Why? Before that time, the game was so different that there were 277 seasons of between 377-680 innings pitched before you get to a season in the live ball era.

    No Koufax: half his career was great in the little dead ball in the early-mid 60’s era in a pitchers park, the other half was poor, and it was too short overall. 82nd SP according to JAWS.

    No Ryan: way too long a career with far too few highlights – from a pitching perspective. Leads the majors in BB’s by a larger ratio than K’s. Poor W-L% compared to team. 33rd SP according to JAWS.


    Method of choosing pitchers:

    Post 1985 SP’s: Over 75 rWAR and an ERA+ of 125 or better

    OR

    Pre 1985 SP’s: over 60 rWAR and an ERA+ of 115 or better (lower because pitchers expected to finish games, which drove down those stats)

    Note: Cy Young awards not given out until 1956, and until 1967, just one for both leagues

    Note the listed ERA is era/park corrected from BR.

    Came up with 18 SP’s, which I removed 8 as not belonging, see below for breakdown:

    Code:
           
    
    Name                   rWAR  ERA  ERA+   IP         W-L             Notes
    
    Pete Alexander:   112.8; 2.65; 136; 5190; 373-208; led league 4 times in ERA
    Roger Clemens:   133.1; 3.10; 143; 4916; 354-184; led league 7 times in ERA; 7 Cy Youngs
    Bob Gibson:         077.5; 3.16; 127; 3884; 251-174; 2 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, post season beast
    Lefty Grove:        103.7; 2.56; 143; 3940; 300-141; led lg in ERA 9 times; 1 MVP; post season beast
    Randy Johnson:   098.6; 3.24; 135; 4135; 303-166; led league in ERA 4 times; 4 Cy Youngs
    Walter Johnson:  144.7; 2.43; 147; 5914; 417-279; led league in ERA 5 times; 2 MVP’s
    Greg Maddux:      099.4; 3.13; 132; 5008; 355-227; led league in ERA 4 times;  4 Cy Youngs
    Pedro Martinez:   082.6; 2.83; 154; 2827; 219-100; led league in ERA 5 times; 3 Cy Youngs
    Tom Seaver:        101.1; 3.25; 127; 4783; 311-205; led league in ERA 3 times; 3 Cy Youngs
    Warren Spahn:    086.0; 3.49; 119; 5243; 373-245; 1 Cy Young; led lg in ERA 3 times; 3 2nd place finishes when only one Cy awarded.
    
    Pitchers that don’t have any business being named top 3 all time that came through my filter:
    
    Bert Blyleven:      090.7; 3.71; 118; 4970; 287-250; 2nd in ERA twice, 3rd in Cy 3 times, led lg in WAR 2 times
    Steve Carlton:     078.6; 3.56; 115; 5217; 329-244; led league in ERA once, 4 Cy Youngs
    Carl Hubbell:        065.3; 2.98; 130; 3590; 253-154; led league in ERA 3 times;  2 MVP’s
    Fergie Jenkins:     077.4; 3.68; 115; 4500; 284-226; 1 Cy Young, 2 2nd’s, 2 3rd’s
    Phil Niekro:          091.7; 3.58; 115; 5404; 318-274; led league in ERA 1 time, Cy Youngs – 1 2nd, 1 3rd place finish
    Jim Palmer:          063.2; 3.53; 125; 3948; 268-152; 3 Cy Youngs
    Gaylord Perry:     087.5; 3.64; 117; 5350; 314-265; 2 Cy Youngs
    Curt Schilling:      076.9; 3.32; 127; 3261; 216-146; 2nd in Cy Young 3 times, post season beast
    Ouch, I thought I could specify 3 votes per poster, choice is 1 or any, so kindly pick a max of 3.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 02-19-2013 at 11:06 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  2. #2
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    I figured 10 choices was the best way to go. Gibson and Pedro seem to be the least deserving of the 10 names to me.

    Interesting Schilling made the top 18, and not even as the last guy. He's terribly underrated. Obviously he's a completely annoying person, but we are not polling that here.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  3. #3
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    NVM didn't see the no Koufax part.
    We're better than you
    And we know it


  4. #4
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    I was thinking of a peak SP poll, but it would come down to Koufax and Pedro every time.

    I was thinking of a dead ball poll, but it would be Cy Young every time for name recognition alone.

    I'm surprised Gibson is getting so much action. Gibson IMO owns the 1960-1970 decade over Koufax, Chance, etc. ('61-'72) was his peak, but all time? Naahhh.

    Poor Alexander, a somewhat lesser WJ, he never gets out of the shadow.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 02-19-2013 at 11:10 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  5. #5
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    Clemens
    Gibson
    Walter Johnson
    Favourite Teams:

    Boston Red Sox: 63-80, games this week vs. Orioles (3), Royals (4)
    Indianapolis Colts: 0-1, Week 2 vs. Eagles
    Minnesota Timberwolves: New team, hoping for good things this season.
    Ottawa Senators: 37-31-14, season over, free agency begins this week.

  6. #6
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    Clemens
    Grove
    Randy Johnson

    Walter Johnson and Alexander had most of their succes in the deadball era. Johnsons era more than doubled, era+ went from 172 to 119, he never had another season under a 2 era with only 2 under 3. Alexander seemed to make the transition a little better, era jumped a run from 2.09 to 3.09 and era+ went from 145 to 128. Both great pitchers of their time no doubt, just to most of their success came before the live ball era.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosox3431 View Post
    Clemens
    Grove
    Randy Johnson

    Walter Johnson and Alexander had most of their succes in the deadball era. Johnsons era more than doubled, era+ went from 172 to 119, he never had another season under a 2 era with only 2 under 3. Alexander seemed to make the transition a little better, era jumped a run from 2.09 to 3.09 and era+ went from 145 to 128. Both great pitchers of their time no doubt, just to most of their success came before the live ball era.
    I know that, but you also have to work in the age/wear factor.

    In 1921 Alexander was in the NL (easier league and slower to change to the live ball era) and was 34 years old and pitched through age 43! in 1930 (the heart of the craziest offensive era in MLB history). At the end of 1920 Alexander had a career 148 ERA+. He pitched 2074 more innings at about 130 ERA+ including the stellar 1927 season at age 40: 21-10 in 268 IP with a 2.52 ERA (160 ERA+). 7 years after 1921 he was 200 or more IP with one year over 300. He's got to be in, unless you make the cut at 1930 instead of 1920.

    Johnson was 33 years old in 1921. He pitched 1417 more IP after 1920 (112 wins), including leading the league in ERA+ once, K's 3 times, K/BB twice, and won an MVP in 1924 when he went 23-7 (6 SHO, 2.72 ERA, 149 ERA+). Also mentioned in the MVP voting in 1922 and 1923.

    Note that the AL was a good deal stronger then the NL, and Johnson retired at age 39 (so just 7 years after 1920). He appeared in two WS good for 50.0 IP and a 2.52 ERA. He led one WS in K's, and led the other one in K's with twice more than any other P that appeared.

    Seems like a great SP that declined in his 30's but was still capable of good years (27.9 rWAR (4.7/yr) from 1921-1926 ages 33-38). Bob Gibson had his last great year at age 34. Pedro at age 33. WJ crushed Pedro in his ages 33-38 years, and was just a bit behind Gibson.

    WJ has to go in unless we are just talking 1925 or 1930 onward.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  8. #8
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    Greg Maddux was the best pitcher I've ever seen. The 'Proffessor' was indeed that. He made umpires change their strike zones every game it seemed like. He only walked 1.9 batters per 9 innings in 22 years. the Postseason Braves failed to win titles or else we might be talking about MAddux being the greatest pitcher of all time. The guy also had 20 gold gloves. He was the man! "chicks dig the long ball!"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pdubz05 View Post
    Greg Maddux was the best pitcher I've ever seen. The 'Proffessor' was indeed that. He made umpires change their strike zones every game it seemed like. He only walked 1.9 batters per 9 innings in 22 years. the Postseason Braves failed to win titles or else we might be talking about MAddux being the greatest pitcher of all time. The guy also had 20 gold gloves. He was the man! "chicks dig the long ball!"
    GG's for pitchers are a joke, and winning 20 in a row is another joke. Kaat won like 14 in a row, and several other pitchers won 8-9 or more in a row. I studied Kaat's GG's closely and he deserved maybe 5 of them.

    Walks are a key stat, but results are more key IMO. In this group he's at best 5th IMO, probably 6th.

    I still think Grove isn't getting near enough attention. 9 times led the league in ERA...? Post season beast. Mid 2 ERA in a killer offensive era, and half his time in a very strong offensive park - Fenway. IF you toss out the two tweener era guys, he's 2nd to Clemens in rWAR.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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