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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    You are excluding that year simply because it makes your argument better, sorry I don't buy that, that is a bull **** argument.

    No I did not, I mention how OPS+ and wCR+ are park adjusted, they give him credit for playing in that park.

    ...and Thole sucked because he was asked to hit more homers and pull the ball more by the coaches which is just as valid an excuse. In the end they both are excuses for ****** seasons by 2 ****** catchers.

    How you can't debate that when Thole is 3 years younger than Hundley and you who loves to bring up age when it suits you have completely ignored this fact. Again because you choose to pick something only when it suits your argument.

    So now we go to you knowing the future again, yeah alright. The one reason why I would advocate Arencibia is because he is still somewhat young. There is a chance he can get better and his ISO has been .200 or more every year he has been in the majors.
    There is nothing to discuss here since you are being unreasonable. Before this season, there was no way you could tell me that Hundley was the .237/.278/.359 player he showed in 2008. I don't understand how that is a bull **** argument.

    Sure, it's park-adjusted, but his raw numbers would be better in a more neutral park and his wRC+ would probably increase with it.

    Thole sucked because he sucks period. He was physically OK to do what he wanted and failed to execute. Hundley on the other hand was essentially injured the whole year, don't know how you can discount that.

    However, he appeared in just three games before being placed on the disabled list with a right knee injury. Making matters worse, Corey Brock of MLB.com is reporting that he’ll undergo season-ending surgery Wednesday to repair a torn meniscus.

    Hundley actually suffered the injury way back in April, so that would certainly explain his season-long struggles.
    http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-knee-surgery/

    Age means absolutely nothing here. Thole doesn't have the tools to be a starting catcher in this league. Teams just continue to bust him inside and he can do nothing about it. Maybe that is why the coaches want him to pull the ball?

    I'm all for going for Arencibia, but he's not really better than Hundley and his plate discipline is terrible. He will be 27 so he's not exactly a spring chicken. Hundley at 25/26 was better than Arencibia at 25/26.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yeah but again you need a guy who can prove he can hit in ballparks that don't consist of a lot of the bandboxes that are in the AL East.

    What is Arencibia good for if his power doesn't translate to Citi Field?

    You would be talking a .200 hitter with 10 home runs a season.
    Citi Field isn't the pitchers park it used to be. Hitters still may suffer a little bit more, but you won't see a tremendous drop off like we saw with Bay and Wright.

    I guess you could compare Arencibia right now to Rod Barajas. Rod had no problem hitting homers out of the old Citi Field. I don't think J.P would be overwhelmed by Citi.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsFanatic19 View Post
    Citi Field isn't the pitchers park it used to be. Hitters still may suffer a little bit more, but you won't see a tremendous drop off like we saw with Bay and Wright.

    I guess you could compare Arencibia right now to Rod Barajas. Rod had no problem hitting homers out of the old Citi Field. I don't think J.P would be overwhelmed by Citi.
    I grant you Citi Field isn't as bad as it used to be but it's not Baltimore, Yankee Stadium, Fenway or Toronto (even Tampa because there are no weather elements to affect the flight of the ball)

    Those first 3 especially are much better hitter's ballparks.

    Aside from Citizen's Bank, what ballparks in the NL East are bandboxes?
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-14-2012 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsFanatic19 View Post
    So does Hundley...
    Arencibia OBP at 25: .282
    Hundley OBP at 25: .313

    Arencibia OBP at 26: .275
    Hundley OBP at 26: .308

    Then Hundley broke out in 2011, and was injured in 2012.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsFanatic19 View Post
    Which one was a great year? Because he's never had 300 at bats or more in a season.

    I would gladly take Arencibia's homerun bat, even if it does mean he doesn't have good plate discipline. He had 23 homeruns his rookie year and 18 this year, a year where he played in 27 less games. The Mets need someone who can hit for power from position number 2.

    Personally, I would take Arencibia over Hundley.
    Last year he he hit .288/.347/.477 in Petco in 308 PA. If Hundley played in more hitters parks, he would hit more HR.

  6. #81
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    I want guys who i know can hit in ballparks that are more difficult to hit in, it's an indication their skill sets will translate to Citi Field and a lot of the pitcher's parks in the NL East.

    Arencibia looks great on paper as a power hitter but if he doesn't have the advantages of playing in smaller ballparks then what does he become?

    He doesn't do anything particularly great aside from hitting home runs. If he loses that ability then he becomes a liability who will hit in the same ilk of a Rob Johnson for average.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I grant you Citi Field isn't as bad as it used to be but it's not Baltimore, Yankee Stadium, Fenway or Toronto (even Tampa because there are no weather elements to affect the flight of the ball)

    Those first 3 especially are much better hitter's ballparks.

    Aside from Citizen's Bank, what ballpark in the NL East are bandboxes?
    Overall, I'd say the NLE is full of neutral ballparks. There is one band box and one extreme pitchers park. The other three are either slighty favored for pitchers or neutral.

    http://www.hittrackeronline.com/deta...69&type=hitter

    This shows Arencibia's true homerun landing spots. As you can see, all of his homeruns would still be homers at Citi Field, Citizens Bank Park, and even Marlins Park and only one of his homers wouldn't be a homerun at Turner Field and Nationals Park.

    His homerun numbers wouldn't suffer at all really. True power hitters can hit homeruns anywhere. I say Arencibia is a true power hitter.

  8. #83
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    I feel that either Arencibia or Hundley would be major upgrades over Thole. I'd be happy with either of them. I also look at it as who would be easier to acquire. And I think Hundley would cost much less than Arencibia in a trade. Not saying that Arencibia would be expensive I just think SD is looking to give him away

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsFanatic19 View Post
    Overall, I'd say the NLE is full of neutral ballparks. There is one band box and one extreme pitchers park. The other three are either slighty favored for pitchers or neutral.

    http://www.hittrackeronline.com/deta...69&type=hitter

    This shows Arencibia's true homerun landing spots. As you can see, all of his homeruns would still be homers at Citi Field, Citizens Bank Park, and even Marlins Park and only one of his homers wouldn't be a homerun at Turner Field and Nationals Park.

    His homerun numbers wouldn't suffer at all really. True power hitters can hit homeruns anywhere. I say Arencibia is a true power hitter.
    Yes but it's not just about how hard a ball was hit, it's also the atmosphere it is hit in.

    Balls die in a lot of these NL East parks that don't die in a lot of these AL East parks.

    He still has quite a lot of power but he would also be facing better pitching on the NL East side.

    You are talking about a division that 4 teams in the top 11 in SP ERA this year.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/...pe/2/split/127

    The AL East had only Tampa and then everyone else ranked 15th or lower in SP ERA.
    Last edited by metswon69; 10-14-2012 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsJets0809 View Post
    I feel that either Arencibia or Hundley would be major upgrades over Thole. I'd be happy with either of them. I also look at it as who would be easier to acquire. And I think Hundley would cost much less than Arencibia in a trade. Not saying that Arencibia would be expensive I just think SD is looking to give him away
    Exactly.

  11. #86
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    To change the tone a little, there's rumors of some debate in the Mets front office about Dickey. They say he wants a deal thats similar to Ollies. And the Mets don't wanna give him that so they may shop him if he doesn't sign for less. I could actually see the Mets trading Dickey for both an OF and Catcher. Would you guys be opposed to this?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yes but it's not just about how hard a ball was hit, it's the atmosphere it is hit in.

    Balls die in a lot of these NL East parks that don't die in a lot of these AL East parks.

    He still has quite a lot of power but he would also be facing better pitching on the NL East side.

    You are talking about a division that 4 teams in the top 11 in SP ERA this year.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/...pe/2/split/127
    How so? The AL East has team in the same locations as the NL East? Is there different air in Philly than Boston, or a different atmosphere in Miami and Tampa Bay? It's not like Arencibia would be playing in totally different climates, like Hundley would might I add.

    Hundley would be facing the same pitching and be playing in the same ballparks as well. Let's not forget about that.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsFanatic19 View Post
    Overall, I'd say the NLE is full of neutral ballparks. There is one band box and one extreme pitchers park. The other three are either slighty favored for pitchers or neutral.

    http://www.hittrackeronline.com/deta...69&type=hitter

    This shows Arencibia's true homerun landing spots. As you can see, all of his homeruns would still be homers at Citi Field, Citizens Bank Park, and even Marlins Park and only one of his homers wouldn't be a homerun at Turner Field and Nationals Park.

    His homerun numbers wouldn't suffer at all really. True power hitters can hit homeruns anywhere. I say Arencibia is a true power hitter.
    It's not easy to hit homers at Turner Field, Marlins park or Citi Field(even with the dimension change)

    Yes, Arencibia would hit his homers anywhere, but it's concerning to me that they were all pulled. He is a really bad hitter with a lot of pop. He walked less this year and struck out more, not a good sign.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsJets0809 View Post
    To change the tone a little, there's rumors of some debate in the Mets front office about Dickey. They say he wants a deal thats similar to Ollies. And the Mets don't wanna give him that so they may shop him if he doesn't sign for less. I could actually see the Mets trading Dickey for both an OF and Catcher. Would you guys be opposed to this?
    Absolutely not. Building around Harvey, Wheeler, Mejia, Familia, Ruben, Ike, and others is what this team needs to do. Dickey could bring in some great young talent that would help this team tremendously in the near future.

    Unless the Mets seriously plan on contending in 2013, I would rather them trade Dickey. I want them to lock up Wright, though. If there's one veteran guy that a team needs, it's him.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetsJets0809 View Post
    To change the tone a little, there's rumors of some debate in the Mets front office about Dickey. They say he wants a deal thats similar to Ollies. And the Mets don't wanna give him that so they may shop him if he doesn't sign for less. I could actually see the Mets trading Dickey for both an OF and Catcher. Would you guys be opposed to this?
    Not at all. Then we could use that 12-15 mil somewhere else.

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