Off-Season Thread

[YoungStuna28]

...so when it comes to Hundley we should eliminate years so his over all numbers look better, but when it comes to Thole we should not eliminate what he did this year. ummm ok


Hundley blows as much as Thole and their careers numbers show period and am using the same arguments you have shown when killing Thole. Am not ignoring years to make one guy look better than the other. Those stats show what they are period and if you bashing one guy, then the other guy is not the answer because he sucks just as much.

wCR+ is parks adjusted, here are their OPS+

Thole 85
Hundley 91

Again Hundley is not superior to Thole and he is 3 years older which leads me to think that this is it with him, youth is not on his side.

Did I not eliminate 2012, where they both sucked??? Why is it wrong to exclude a player's rookie season for some? After that rookie year, Hundley has done above average for a catcher period from 2009-2011 with a .330 wOBA and 110+ wRC+ while Thole from 2010-2011 has a .314 wOBA and 97 wRC+.

You are also not giving credit for the fact that Hundley plays in Petco that suppresses power especially. So again, Hundley does not blow because you have said nothing to show that.

The reason again that Hundley sucked this year is because he had a bad knee, and for a catcher that is a killer. That is a valid excuse to dismiss this season, Thole has no such thing.

The one thing you can't debate is that Hundley has a higher upside and is a better fit for the Mets than Thole. He bats right-handed, can hit homers, and play good defense. It's not like the dude is gonna cost much of value since they got Grandal now.

Also you advocate getting Arencibia, but he has done nothing better than Hundley and may never will, even though he hits in a much hitter friendly ballpark.

[MetsFanatic19]

Trading for one of Toronto's young catchers would be the best move, by far. Hundley, Thole, Pierzynski, Shoppach will not help this team enough in the present or the future. With, say, Arencibia, he gives us a good righty bat for 2013 and a promising future at a position that has produced poop since Lo Duca left.

I would definitly trade one of our pitchers for one of the Jays' catchers.

[YoungStuna28]

Also you bash somebody else for bringing up Nate McLouth and you bring up Hundley as if Hundley is some superior player to McLouth and an answer to a major hole for the Mets?

McLouth at least has had some 3 good years and made a nice little comeback in 2012.

Oh boy, you just can't admit that you are wrong. It's not the same at all.

Overall this season, McLouth had a .305 wOBA after putting up a .307 wOBA in 2011, and a .282 wOBA in 2010. When the league average is a .327 wOBA, that is ****ing garbage dude.

The last time McLouth was any good for an entire season, was the last time Bay was good for an entire season. 3 years is a LONG time in baseball. Hundley is just one year away from his career season.

And another thing, you make it sound like finding a solid catcher is an easy thing to do, guys like Hundley are NOT a dime a dozen whereas guys like McLouth can be found all over the place, including our system.

Even including this debacle of a season by Hundley, he's still been better than McLouth from 2010-2012.

[YoungStuna28]

Trading for one of Toronto's young catchers would be the best more, by far. Hundley, Thole, Pierzynski, Shoppach will not help this team enough in the present or the future. With, say, Arencibia, he gives us a good righty bat for 2013 and a promising future at a position that has produced poop since Lo Duca left.

Hundley just turned 29 years old. That is not old.

[MetsFanatic19]

Hundley just turned 29 years old. That is not old.

I never said anything about age... I mentioned Thole who is only 25. And in the future when the Mets top pitching prospects are almost fully developed, in say 3 or 4 years, he would be 32/33. That's a little bit on the old side, especially for a catcher.

Anyways, I don't believe he's going to turn into a guy who is going be a very productive bat in the lineup or is one right now. With Arencibia or d'Arnaud (It would most likely be Arencibia, if there was a trade), you get someone who is a good righty hitter right now and someone who will get better and more productive in the future.

I don't think Hundley, Thole, or anyone else I mentioned will ever be someone who will make a big difference at the plate. Unless the Mets manage to put together a great offense aorund them, then I wouldn't care as much.

[YoungStuna28]

I never said anything about age... I mentioned Thole who is only 25. And in the future when the Mets top pitching prospects are almost fully developed, in say 3 or 4 years, he would be 32/33. That's a little bit on the old side, especially for a catcher.

Anyways, I don't believe he's going to turn into a guy who is going be a very productive bat in the lineup or is one right now. With Arencibia or d'Arnaud (It would most likely be Arencibia, if there was a trade), you get someone who is a good righty hitter right now and someone who will get better and more productive in the future.

I don't think Headly, Thole, or anyone else I mentioned will ever be someone who will make a big difference at the plate. Unless the Mets manage to put together a great offense aorund them, then I wouldn't care as much.

Yeah but it's clear that Thole is not a starting catcher. He's gotten his opportunities and he's done nothing with them. Hundley has had 2 above average seasons with one great one. 32/33 years old is still fine for a catcher, and it's nice to have a veteran presence.

Arencibia isn't a good hitter at all, he just has very good pop. He has terrible plate discipline, and his numbers have never been better than Hundley's in a hitter's park.

[metswon69]

Arencibia splits:

Home: .294 wOBA, WRC+ 83
Away: .314 wOBA WRC+ 95

His only halfway impressive stat is his .222 ISO at home but that's a very hitter friendly park like YS mentioned.

And his traditional stats very much indicate he hits for power and not much else.

[MetsFanatic19]

Which one was a great year? Because he's never had 300 at bats or more in a season.

I would gladly take Arencibia's homerun bat, even if it does mean he doesn't have good plate discipline. He had 23 homeruns his rookie year and 18 this year, a year where he played in 27 less games. The Mets need someone who can hit for power from position number 2.

Personally, I would take Arencibia over Hundley.

[Sick Of It All]

Did I not eliminate 2012, where they both sucked??? Why is it wrong to exclude a player's rookie season for some? After that rookie year, Hundley has done above average for a catcher period from 2009-2011 with a .330 wOBA and 110+ wRC+ while Thole from 2010-2011 has a .314 wOBA and 97 wRC+.

You are excluding that year simply because it makes your argument better, sorry I don't buy that, that is a bull **** argument.

You are also not giving credit for the fact that Hundley plays in Petco that suppresses power especially. So again, Hundley does not blow because you have said nothing to show that.

No I did not, I mention how OPS+ and wCR+ are park adjusted, they give him credit for playing in that park.

The reason again that Hundley sucked this year is because he had a bad knee, and for a catcher that is a killer. That is a valid excuse to dismiss this season, Thole has no such thing.

...and Thole sucked because he was asked to hit more homers and pull the ball more by the coaches which is just as valid an excuse. In the end they both are excuses for ****** seasons by 2 ****** catchers.

The one thing you can't debate is that Hundley has a higher upside and is a better fit for the Mets than Thole. He bats right-handed, can hit homers, and play good defense. It's not like the dude is gonna cost much of value since they got Grandal now.

How you can't debate that when Thole is 3 years younger than Hundley and you who loves to bring up age when it suits you have completely ignored this fact. Again because you choose to pick something only when it suits your argument.

Also you advocate getting Arencibia, but he has done nothing better than Hundley and may never will, even though he hits in a much hitter friendly ballpark.

So now we go to you knowing the future again, yeah alright. The one reason why I would advocate Arencibia is because he is still somewhat young. There is a chance he can get better and his ISO has been .200 or more every year he has been in the majors.

[Sick Of It All]

Oh boy, you just can't admit that you are wrong. It's not the same at all.

Kind of like the Crow calling the Raven black.

Overall this season, McLouth had a .305 wOBA after putting up a .307 wOBA in 2011, and a .282 wOBA in 2010. When the league average is a .327 wOBA, that is ****ing garbage dude.

..and am not advocating for the Mets to sign MvLouth or trade for him or anything of that sort. He is bad just like Hundley is bad.

The last time McLouth was any good for an entire season, was the last time Bay was good for an entire season. 3 years is a LONG time in baseball. Hundley is just one year away from his career season.

The one thing you are right on is that that was a career year for Hundley and that is it.

And another thing, you make it sound like finding a solid catcher is an easy thing to do, guys like Hundley are NOT a dime a dozen whereas guys like McLouth can be found all over the place, including our system.

...and if the Mets needed a back up then I would advocate Hundley, but they don't. For that re-sign Shoppach. Mets need a STARTER!!! not another no hit back up.

Even including this debacle of a season by Hundley, he's still been better than McLouth from 2010-2012.

They both suck and hence why I want no part of them.

Finding guys that are less than mediocre is not what the Mets need, trading for Hundley is not buying low, is buying ****** and scrapping the bottom of the barrel to find and try to replace another ****** catcher with similar career numbers.

[Sick Of It All]

I never said anything about age... I mentioned Thole who is only 25. And in the future when the Mets top pitching prospects are almost fully developed, in say 3 or 4 years, he would be 32/33. That's a little bit on the old side, especially for a catcher.

Anyways, I don't believe he's going to turn into a guy who is going be a very productive bat in the lineup or is one right now. With Arencibia or d'Arnaud (It would most likely be Arencibia, if there was a trade), you get someone who is a good righty hitter right now and someone who will get better and more productive in the future.

I don't think Hundley, Thole, or anyone else I mentioned will ever be someone who will make a big difference at the plate. Unless the Mets manage to put together a great offense aorund them, then I wouldn't care as much.

If Thole is not a long term answer, then neither is Hundley or for that matter a short term answer. I rather they sign a guy like Ross or Soto if he gets non tendered.

Thinking that guys like McLouth or Hundley are better options will only lead to another ****** season.

[metswon69]

Which one was a great year? Because he's never had 300 at bats or more in a season.

I would gladly take Arencibia's homerun bat, even if it does mean he doesn't have good plate discipline. He had 23 homeruns his rookie year and 18 this year, a year where he played in 27 less games. The Mets need someone who can hit for power from position number 2.

Personally, I would take Arencibia over Hundley.

I don't think that his power translates well to Citi Field, and in 2011 Hundley's ISO was .255 at home with 162 WRC+.

His road numbers were also much better than Arencibias.

That's impressive for a park like Petco.

Arencibia also has a career OBP under .300.

It's great he hits for power but he doesn't do much else.

[MetsFanatic19]

Arencibia also has a career OBP under .300.

So does Hundley...

[metswon69]

Arencibia also plays in a lot of hitter's parks in the AL East, that won't be the case in the NL East.

[metswon69]

So does Hundley...

Yeah but again you need a guy who can prove he can hit in ballparks that don't consist of a lot of the bandboxes that are in the AL East.

What is Arencibia good for if his power doesn't translate to Citi Field?

You would be talking a .200 hitter with 10 home runs a season.