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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottograham14 View Post
    I don't think he doesn't want to come to Cleveland, he just sees guys getting salaries like Victorino and Upton and wants to get paid too. He is looking for about 14 to 15 mill a year right now and the Tribe is only offering 12. I would almost guarantee that if the Tribe offered him 4 years at 60 mill like he wants then he would sign that day especially after Upton and Victorino got 13-15 mill a year on their deals and Swisher has consistently had if not the same type of numbers better or close too in most areas. The only thing they have on him is really youth. Can't say a guy doesn't want to come here just because he is trying to get more money.

    I think a lot of you underestimate Tito and the respect that he garneshes from a lot of MLB players. You guys complain when they try signing players even if they are just using them for leverage, and you complain when they don't try signing players. You can't have it both ways. Cleveland sport fans will never be happy because they have always thought they were owed something when in reality you are not. The FO doesn't make you go to games or spend money on them. They don't force you to follow them as fans. If you are to the point where all you do is bad mout them because that is all you have left then you might want to move on and go root for a team that spends money every year and gets all the players you want. Its just ridiculous listening to Cleveland fans every year find some new way to complain about something. I don't mind the frustration once in a while but this is starting to sound like the negative thread where no matter what move they make people are going to find a way to bad mouth it. I guess this isn't as bad as Cleveland.com at least. Those comment sections are ridiculous.
    MLB has a problem that didn't always exist.... I realize small market teams have always been small market teams with the exception of a few years here or there but the fact that it's not possible for a team like the Indians or Rays to keep a player beyond Free Agency will continue to make MLB less popular... If fans can't find a favorite player on a team and there's no chance he'll be there alot of his career, it makes MLB less appealing.... The NBA is probably the middle ground between MLB and the NFL... NFL can keep players on same team most or all of their career.... NBA can as long as they are winning. In MLB, it doesn't matter if they win, it's just not happening for the Indians. Forcing fans to pick a new favorite player every 3-4 years is asking too much of them. I mean the intense fans like us will do it because we care about baseball clearly and love watching it. Most fans will not put that much effort into being a fan. MLB will need to solve that problem if they want to keep competing well into the future. Just my opinion/mini-rant.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinLafferty View Post
    MLB has a problem that didn't always exist.... I realize small market teams have always been small market teams with the exception of a few years here or there but the fact that it's not possible for a team like the Indians or Rays to keep a player beyond Free Agency will continue to make MLB less popular... If fans can't find a favorite player on a team and there's no chance he'll be there alot of his career, it makes MLB less appealing.... The NBA is probably the middle ground between MLB and the NFL... NFL can keep players on same team most or all of their career.... NBA can as long as they are winning. In MLB, it doesn't matter if they win, it's just not happening for the Indians. Forcing fans to pick a new favorite player every 3-4 years is asking too much of them. I mean the intense fans like us will do it because we care about baseball clearly and love watching it. Most fans will not put that much effort into being a fan. MLB will need to solve that problem if they want to keep competing well into the future. Just my opinion/mini-rant.
    MLB is getting much better for teams keeping star players, especially in recent years. "We're a small market" is nothing more than a convenient excuse for teams like the Indians when they can't hack it. Even if they can't keep their star players, see should at least be competent enough to trade them at high value for high value prospects. See: Rays, Atheltics. You can't tell me Indians market is smaller than those teams, or the Reds who just signed Votto to a massive deal and have a salary still ~$80m. It's not the "markets" fault the Indians front office is incapable of finding and developing high level players anymore (and if they do they trade them for beans).

    NBA is by far the worst. Every player goes to a super team, the super team collapses, they go their seperate ways. It's a mess.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneTuzSea View Post
    MLB is getting much better for teams keeping star players, especially in recent years. "We're a small market" is nothing more than a convenient excuse for teams like the Indians when they can't hack it. Even if they can't keep their star players, see should at least be competent enough to trade them at high value for high value prospects. See: Rays, Atheltics. You can't tell me Indians market is smaller than those teams, or the Reds who just signed Votto to a massive deal and have a salary still ~$80m. It's not the "markets" fault the Indians front office is incapable of finding and developing high level players anymore (and if they do they trade them for beans).

    NBA is by far the worst. Every player goes to a super team, the super team collapses, they go their seperate ways. It's a mess.
    Trading them at their peak for prospects doesn't make A's or Ray's fans happy even if it ends up working out, they're just going to do it with the next prospect that turns out great. The Reds and Votto are almost lucky to have that happened. Not that he didn't get paid alot but he basically resigned because he is incapable of playing in a big market due to his anxiety issues.

    The NBA is not worse at all. Votto is one of the only resigned superstars (true superstar) I can think of in a small market. The NBA has plenty of stars in small market resigned and they usually only leave when they feel they can't win it in the small market.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinLafferty View Post
    Trading them at their peak for prospects doesn't make A's or Ray's fans happy even if it ends up working out, they're just going to do it with the next prospect that turns out great. The Reds and Votto are almost lucky to have that happened. Not that he didn't get paid alot but he basically resigned because he is incapable of playing in a big market due to his anxiety issues.

    The NBA is not worse at all. Votto is one of the only resigned superstars (true superstar) I can think of in a small market. The NBA has plenty of stars in small market resigned and they usually only leave when they feel they can't win it in the small market.
    Plus there is this thing in the NBA called the Cap that helps keep players. Most of the times to if a team owner is not really doing anything and just continuing to tank each year without worrying about rebuilding or trying to build a winner then Stern and the NBA will step in and either facilitate a way out for that owner or find partners. That does not happen in MLB. Look at the Marlins. You dont think Selig or the MLB wants to do something about what they did this offseason. I am sure they do but they can't based on the agreement of the owners and MLB. Also the NBA has the Bird rights that make it a lot easier to try obtaining a star player after a number of years as well as the NFL with the tag where MLB baseball has finally starting giving draft picks but that was just recently. I completely agree with you too Justin about the 3-4 year star players. It makes baseball even tougher to get behind when your favorite player is just going to leave in 4 years. Most of the times with these rebuilding teams you get behind 3-4 guys that grow together for 4 years and start to win because they are hitting their peaks together and then comes the fall where you can only resign 1 of them and possibly 2 but then you have to let the others go as you are incapable of re-signing them all unless they take paycuts. Its a tough sport to be in but that is why the scouting and developmental programs have to do a better job not too mention the drafting so that the Tribe can try those random 2 years to compete. It sucks but that is the realization of the place the Indians are in.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottograham14 View Post
    Plus there is this thing in the NBA called the Cap that helps keep players. Most of the times to if a team owner is not really doing anything and just continuing to tank each year without worrying about rebuilding or trying to build a winner then Stern and the NBA will step in and either facilitate a way out for that owner or find partners. That does not happen in MLB. Look at the Marlins. You dont think Selig or the MLB wants to do something about what they did this offseason. I am sure they do but they can't based on the agreement of the owners and MLB. Also the NBA has the Bird rights that make it a lot easier to try obtaining a star player after a number of years as well as the NFL with the tag where MLB baseball has finally starting giving draft picks but that was just recently. I completely agree with you too Justin about the 3-4 year star players. It makes baseball even tougher to get behind when your favorite player is just going to leave in 4 years. Most of the times with these rebuilding teams you get behind 3-4 guys that grow together for 4 years and start to win because they are hitting their peaks together and then comes the fall where you can only resign 1 of them and possibly 2 but then you have to let the others go as you are incapable of re-signing them all unless they take paycuts. Its a tough sport to be in but that is why the scouting and developmental programs have to do a better job not too mention the drafting so that the Tribe can try those random 2 years to compete. It sucks but that is the realization of the place the Indians are in.
    I was always against a cap in MLB but I think there should be a cap in the form of more restrictive luxury tax where it heavily penalizes teams who spend above a certain number and not so high where only the Yankees end up paying....

  6. #216
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    T.J. Zuppe ‏@TJZuppe

    The #Indians had been looking at a few SS alternatives in free-agent and trade market during meetings. Gregorius is 22-year old SS.

    57m T.J. Zuppe T.J. Zuppe ‏@TJZuppe

    If #Indians do indeed acquire Gregorius as reported if deal goes down, it clears the path for them to deal Asdrubal Cabrera.

    1h T.J. Zuppe T.J. Zuppe ‏@TJZuppe

    Might be worth price of admission alone to watch him try to play CF RT @DKnobler: Reds would use Choo in center field, and as leadoff hitter

    1h T.J. Zuppe T.J. Zuppe ‏@TJZuppe

    Heating up RT @DKnobler: Reds deep in talks on deal to acquire Shin-soo Choo from Indians for Stubbs and Gregorius. http://cbsprt.co/UfMpzf

  7. #217
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    Stockpiling shortstops and old infielders who can't hit. How can anyone possibly think this is a good idea. But hey as Mark Shapiro said...it's not all about winning!

  8. #218
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    Reds, Indians Talking Shin-Soo Choo Trade
    By Zach Links [December 11 at 4:20pm CST]
    4:20pm: There is now a three-team deal in the works between the Reds, Indians, and Diamondbacks, according to Paul Hoynes of the Plain Dealer (via Twitter). Asdrubal Cabrera is not involved in the discussions at this stage.

    3:01pm: The Reds and Indians are deep in talks that would send Shin-Soo Choo to Cincinnati, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. The Indians would receive center fielder Drew Stubbs and shortstop Didi Gregorius in return while the Reds are expected to receive another player in the deal.

    The Reds would use Choo in center field even though he hasn't played there for the Indians since 2009 and has played just ten MLB games at the position in total. The Reds are banking on the 30-year-old's offensive production being able to make up for whatever they might lose defensively. The veteran owns a .289/.381/.465 slash line across eight major league seasons.

    The acquisition of Gregorius could allow the Indians to deal fellow shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera. Cabrera, 27, is set to earn $6.5MM in 2013 and $10MM in 2014 before hitting free agency. Meanwhile, the 22-year-old Gregorius won't be arbitration eligible until 2016 and won't see the open market until 2019. The Netherlands native split time between Double-A and Triple-A last season, hitting .265/.324/.393 with seven homers in 561 plate appearances.

    Stubbs, 28, struggled at the plate in 2012 as he posted a .213/.277/.333 batting line with 14 home runs in 544 plate appearances. The former eighth-overall pick in the 2006 draft has a .241/.312/.386 across four big league seasons with the Reds.

    Choo, a Scott Boras client, is set to hit the open market after the 2013 season. The Indians were said to have him available via trade, albeit with a high price tag. The Reds would plug Choo in as the leadoff hitter, a role they have been working hard to fill. The club spoke with the Twins about Ben Revere before he was traded to the Phillies and also had conversations with the Rockies about Dexter Fowler.
    Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#7ZGPAE2JM3IZepcp.99

    Probably still looking at Arizona pitching. Id rather give them Cabrera and take Gregs and Stubbs. Thats a lot of control with those two. Don't mind Stubbs as if they do sign Swisher then Stubbs/Brantley/Swisher OF would not be bad compared to the last couple years. Gives the Tribe some SB's too.

    Wonder who the additional player the Tribe are throwing in the deal. Would have to think a prospect.

  9. #219
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    The proud owner of a name that's as much hiphop as shortstop, Reds prospect DiDi Gregorius is part of Cincinnati's posse of hard-hitting infielders of the future. Mariekson Julius Gregorius (okay, now we see why he prefers Didi) is a Netherlands native with a sweet lefthanded swing who can play all over the diamond, though he certainly does seem very much at home at shortstop. He slashed .270/.312/.392 at AA Carolina in 2011, too, proving that there isn't much left between him and the big-league club.
    http://www.scoutingbook.com/players/p2805

  10. #220
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    Apperantly Arizona wants Didi much more than it does ACab. Shocker there. Arizona better be ready to give up some pitching for that.

  11. #221
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    I'm guessing the framework is something like

    ARZ: Gregorious + someone else from CLE
    CIN: Choo
    CLE: Bauer/Skaggs + Stubbs

    If we can net one of those Arizona arms plus Drew Stubbs under contract for 3 years for Choo under contract for 1 I would be a happy camper.

    Stubbs sucks though, so hopefully the pitcher we would get would be Skaggs or Bauer and not Corbin. Not sure how I'd feel about Corbin/Stubbs

  12. #222
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    Let's say best case scenario we net Skaggs and Stubbs in the Choo deal and then sign Nick Swisher.

    1. Kipnis - 2B
    2. Cabrera - SS
    3. Swisher - RF
    4. Santana - C
    5. Stubbs - CF
    6. Brantley - LF
    7. Reynolds - 1B
    8. Canzler - DH
    9. Chisenhall - 3B

    SP - Masterson
    SP - Ubaldo
    SP - Carrasco
    SP - Skaggs
    SP - Tomlin/McAllister/Huff/Whoever makes it out of ST with the job

    That's not too bad
    Last edited by iAugust; 12-11-2012 at 06:12 PM.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAugust View Post
    I'm guessing the framework is something like

    ARZ: Gregorious + someone else from CLE
    CIN: Choo
    CLE: Bauer/Skaggs + Stubbs

    If we can net one of those Arizona arms plus Drew Stubbs under contract for 3 years for Choo under contract for 1 I would be a happy camper.

    Stubbs sucks though, so hopefully the pitcher we would get would be Skaggs or Bauer and not Corbin. Not sure how I'd feel about Corbin/Stubbs
    Knowing how bad Arizona seems to want a young SS and Cincy has been looking everywhere for a leadoff hitter I think the Tribe are in a prime spot to rip someone off. I wouldn't be surprised if they are looking for Bauer/Corbin and Stubbs all in the deal while shipping out Choo and probably a prospect. At least thats what I am hoping. Remember too it was reported that the Tribe are asking a lot for Choo so I could see them requesting 2 SP prospects as well as an everyday OF'er which this would net if they get all three.

  14. #224
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    Corbin + Stubbs = Bad
    Bauer/Skaggs + Stubbs = Good
    Bauer/Skaggs + Corbin + Stubbs = Great

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAugust View Post
    Let's say best case scenario we net Skaggs and Stubbs in the Choo deal and then sign Nick Swisher.

    1. Kipnis - 2B
    2. Cabrera - SS
    3. Swisher - RF
    4. Santana - C
    5. Stubbs - CF
    6. Brantley - LF
    7. Reynolds - 1B
    8. ??? - DH
    9. Chisenhall - 3B

    SP - Masterson
    SP - Ubaldo
    SP - Carrasco
    SP - Skaggs
    SP - Tomlin/McAllister/Huff/Whoever makes it out of ST with the job

    That's not too bad
    I'd imagine right now that Canzler would be the DH after the finish he had. Plus Reynolds would probably be 5th or 6th in that lineup IMO. I would not mind a Masty, Bauer, Ubs, McAllister and Corbin rotation next year.

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