Pats Offense..... Better without Hernandez?

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 05:46 AM

Ok so this is no knock on Hernandez at all, he is a great player. But My point is that other than the game he actually got injured in (ARZ) our offense has looked more crisp, and seems we have executed better. I would attribute this to simpler play calling, doing plays that work rather than the sort of gimmicky, trick type plays. I guess I just think JM thinks that because he has all these versatile weapons , he has to try to use them in odd, "genius" type ways. But when Hernandez is hurt they simplify things more, (still add some quirky plays in , but not the basis of the O) and things seem to move more smoothly. Hopefully when AH comes back JM will let the talent of the players beat the other team rather then try to simply and only outsmart them. He usually outsmarts himself when he does that.

**griff141** · 10-29-2012, 06:14 AM

Hernandez is a top 5 TE, the offense is clearly better when he's in the line-up. He creates a mismatch nightmare for opposing defenses due to his pass catching versatility. The offense will become that much more lethal when he returns healthy.

**subroc** · 10-29-2012, 06:28 AM

Taking good players away from any team doesn't make them better. No logical argument can be made.

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 07:30 AM

My point was that the play calling changes when he is in the game... Not that he isn't good. If the play calling is equal of course we are better with him. I'm saying that the play calling needs to bette like it is when he isn't playing. Btw when you say it's an automatic loss when you remove a top player like that.... We traded Moss who at the time was a top 10 WR and everyone said it would hurt our offense. Not true, as what we were trying to accomplish on offense was different that what his skill set was. So we need better play calling to use Hernandez and all of our players when they are all in the game.

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 07:31 AM

I love Hernandez , don't get me wrong, but we just need to keep it more simple at ALL times IMO to keep the offense at its potential.

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 07:41 AM

Also, rushing him back from injury is probably part of the problem. I wouldn't play him until he is completely healthy. He is the type of player , who because of his fast cuts and movements really needs to be able to do those things at or very near 100% to be the player he truly is. This is unlike a player like Gronk, who can play through certain injuries like that because he relies much less on those types of movements. I.e. the Super Bowl. Hernandez could never even been close to effective with that type of injury simply because of what his strengths are as a football player in general.

**BoSox47** · 10-29-2012, 08:50 AM

**Valleyfella** · 10-29-2012, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by holywack17

I love Hernandez , don't get me wrong, but we just need to keep it more simple at ALL times IMO to keep the offense at its potential.

They'd have to simplify the offense if Brady was out, too. That doesn't make it a good thing. AH's size, speed and versatility make him as valuable to the offense as Welker and Gronk. When you have four quality receivers in Gronk, Welker, AH and Lloyd that means the other teams 4th best DB or a linebacker is mismatched against one of them and no one is better than Brady at finding the mismatch. AH makes a great offense downright frightening.

**lolollort** · 10-29-2012, 10:14 AM

God no AH is a matchup nightmare.
It is very hard for the opposing team to line up with him because he can show up in the backfield, slot, TE, wide. He can run, catch and block (sorta, lol) by that I mean he isn't a great pass blocking TE.
I see your point with the play calling BUT I think we are now just executing. I'm sure BB went in on the team and that is why they stepped up.
Our line wasn't as good as it is earlier in the season, it also seems that a few injuries are healing (Gronk hip problems, line injuries) albeit, Welker, Lloyd, AH, TB12, Mankins, vreen and boldin are not 100%.
I think this performance was more about how well we are executing now and I think it will get better as players heal up.

**bagwell368** · 10-29-2012, 11:32 AM

AH can line-up as a WR, TE, Slot, FB, RB - and run plays. Gronk is more of a wrecking ball, but there a lot of things he can't do. Welker has the hands, but, can't block or line up as a FB.

Not counting Brady, a healthy AH is the most player the Pats have for other teams to deal with - game in and game out.

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 11:39 AM

This is not a Hernandez bashing thread, I love the player, I love the way he plays, his versatility etc. Perhaps the title is misleading. I am more concerned about the offensive play calling. Even BB has said before that he doesn't like motioning guys on every snap and getting too cute with whats going on on offense. Basically, it is very tempting for JM to do things that most teams Can't do, because of Hernandez's versatility, but there has to be a certain point where you line up and just play. Don't think I'm advocating benching him, or trading him. On the contrary I believe he is one of our best, and one of my favorite players. And HE WILL make our team better when healthy.

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Valleyfella

They'd have to simplify the offense if Brady was out, too. That doesn't make it a good thing. AH's size, speed and versatility make him as valuable to the offense as Welker and Gronk. When you have four quality receivers in Gronk, Welker, AH and Lloyd that means the other teams 4th best DB or a linebacker is mismatched against one of them and no one is better than Brady at finding the mismatch. AH makes a great offense downright frightening.

I'm not saying pick 5 plays and run them. I don't think you realize how complex an NFL offense, especially this patriots offense can get. I'm saying don't get too cute.

**holywack17** · 10-29-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by lolollort

God no AH is a matchup nightmare.
It is very hard for the opposing team to line up with him because he can show up in the backfield, slot, TE, wide. He can run, catch and block (sorta, lol) by that I mean he isn't a great pass blocking TE.
I see your point with the play calling BUT I think we are now just executing. I'm sure BB went in on the team and that is why they stepped up.
Our line wasn't as good as it is earlier in the season, it also seems that a few injuries are healing (Gronk hip problems, line injuries) albeit, Welker, Lloyd, AH, TB12, Mankins, vreen and boldin are not 100%.
I think this performance was more about how well we are executing now and I think it will get better as players heal up.

Fair points. Of course execution is always the key, and I agree it is better now that it was earlier. Its really about finding the right balance between what works for the offense in general, what works against a specific team/situation/defense, (complexity increases here), and thus getting optimal execution via the correct balance and ability of the players.

**subroc** · 10-29-2012, 12:37 PM

I expect when an offense is executed successfully and plays work, it looks easy and simple and could be called "crisp." I also expect in some cases when a play fails it could be called "gimmicky" or "trick type plays" or too "cute." There is a defensive component (the other team) on every play and they play a significant part in the success or failure of an offensive play. They are, after all, players not automatons. There is also a team experience level as the season progresses.

None of that has anything to do with AH.

You have an argument without a premise.

Without significant examples of plays that were complicated or extreme compared to the rest of the play calling or were tricky in the first couple games that featured AH and failed, you have no case.

**sdceltsfan** · 10-29-2012, 12:37 PM

Just when you thought you've seen/read everything. I somehow, understand the speculative nature of this topic, but only in the sense that I also raise questions that may not be popular or predictable.

This is just ridiculous though. If you were to include the word *injured* somewhere in the heading, this would have made a lot more sense. The last couple games Hernandez has played, he is clearly going a little over half-speed. His speed is what makes a guy his size an actual mismatch. Right now, he just looks like a bulkier guy trying to half-*** at WR.

If he's hurt, he clearly isn't one of those guys who is effective still when playing with any kind of injury to his lower extremities. When healthy though, Hernandez is our 3rd best target in the receiving game, and probably our 2nd or 3rd best route runner as a WR. The things they ask him to do is insane to ask of most players; his route/pattern variations probably double anyone else's on the team.

It is literally insane to suggest that a guy with this level of talent, somehow makes this or any offense worse, when he is playing healthy.

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