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  1. #1
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    Cam Newton is killing this team

    Granted, I'm not a panthers fan, and Steve smith is on my fantasy team. And since I have the Nfl ticket, I'll bet I've watched a lot more of Newton in action than most here.

    But as an outsider looking in, Newton is vick 2.0

    Enormous ego, all about his personal stats. Runs when he should throw, at the expense of wide open receivers down the field. Good luck, because that kind of personality defect is nearly impossible to correct this late in life.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheVicster View Post
    Granted, I'm not a panthers fan, and Steve smith is on my fantasy team. And since I have the Nfl ticket, I'll bet I've watched a lot more of Newton in action than most here.

    But as an outsider looking in, Newton is vick 2.0

    Enormous ego, all about his personal stats. Runs when he should throw, at the expense of wide open receivers down the field. Good luck, because that kind of personality defect is nearly impossible to correct this late in life.
    You sir have no idea what you are talking about. Please vacate the area and no loitering in this forum.

    Thank you

  3. #3
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    You clearly don't watch the Panthers frequently if you honestly think this. I've watched every game Newton's played. You either have only watched a few unfortunate games or don't actually know anything about the offense.

    1.) The Vick comparison is crap. Cam is a rookie and has accomplished more in his year and 5 games than Vicki has in nearly a decade. Vick has severe fumble problems, on top of severe interception problems. Vick is 6 inches and 50 lbs smaller than Newton. Literally the only thing they have in common is that they both run, of which Newton is still better at it.

    2.) Ego; this is a common complaint from 'outsiders' who know nothing about him. How does he have an ego exactly? Because he has a TD celebration? So does Aaron Rodgers, what's your point? If you've actually watched him since he's been drafted (off the field) you'd know that the 'ego problem' is virtually non-existent, unless you consider confidence an 'ego problem' in which every NFL player should have it.

    3.) Runs when he should throw; 80%+ of Newton's runs are all scripted. They aren't scrambles. If you don't like that, take it up with the OC who calls the plays. The OC apparently thinks an option offense belongs in the NFL. Go figure.

    4.) "Wide-open recievers"; lol, if you watched this game, while Newton did look terrible, the WRs weren't exactly on fire. He missed Olsen the entire game, which makes no sense, but Steve Smith dropped 3 passes. That's tough to say coming from the biggest Smith fan you'll ever meet.

    5.) If having a strong desire to win is a defect, I'll take it any day of the week.

  4. #4
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    And, im out

    clearly pantber fans are as clueless as clueless jets fans are with sancbez

    tip. WATCH the game read a d listen to what the analsts say get ur head ijt of your hou know what

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheVicster View Post
    And, im out

    clearly pantber fans are as clueless as clueless jets fans are with sancbez

    tip. WATCH the game read a d listen to what the analsts say get ur head ijt of your hou know what
    Learn how to proof read Mr Clueless. You are the perfect example of our broken education system. What a waste of tax dollars.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheVicster View Post
    And, im out

    clearly pantber fans are as clueless as clueless jets fans are with sancbez

    tip. WATCH the game read a d listen to what the analsts say get ur head ijt of your hou know what
    Panther fans are noting like Jets fans. Our QB played like Tebow today, for sure, but typically they don't. If it weren't for Newton last season the offense AND defense would've been bottom 5. This team isn't going anywhere until it gets the defense together and gets the coaching right.

    BTW, instead of basing your opinion on the commentators (who typically don't watch much of Carolina anyway), why don't you actually watch the games and make your own opinions. I realize you're not a fan, so I don't expect you to know much about a small-market team like Carolina, but the rest of the NFL world only reacts to Carolina based on how the media tells them.

    Example: Newton is doing well and breaking the rookie record, the NFL is all over his jock, so are the fans who haven't even watched him.

    Example 2: Newton plays poorly against the NYG on prime-time, along with the defense giving zero help and being down early, the entire NFL dogs him and everyone acts like they watch Newton on a weekly basis.

    Example 3: Newton plays excellent against ATL and puts the team in position to win, defense blows it, everyone talks about how Newton lost the game because of the Panther-recovered fumble that didn't lose the game.

    Future Example 4: Tomorrow, everyone will act like they did when Carolina lost to NYG, rinse, repeat, do it the same next week.

    TL;DR: The Panthers don't get the same coverage that other teams get. They only get coverage when they're doing something amazing or awful.

  7. #7
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    Heh. Trolls need not apply. Most of the OP's assertions are ridiculous, but his overall point is well taken.

    Newton has not been his normal self this year. The offense as a whole has not been itself this year. I've been trying to figure that out all day, but to no avail.

    That said, Newton has been part of the problem, but not the whole problem. I feel confident saying this now: this team is not a playoff contender this year. They are doing too many little things wrong and still have no idea how to play with the lead. Next year might be a different story, but the remainder of this year has to be a learning session.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    Example 3: Newton plays excellent against ATL and puts the team in position to win, defense blows it, everyone talks about how Newton lost the game because of the Panther-recovered fumble that didn't lose the game.
    In all fairness, this might not have lost the game, but that was on a play that would have won the game if he held onto the ball. Losing on an opportunity to win the game and actually losing the game are not so far apart. In this case, **** happens, we all need to move on, but the larger point that Newton still needs to mature is fair and accurate. That's nothing against Newton, as he's only in his SECOND year and has already done more than most players do in their first two years, but it's a fair statement nonetheless.

  9. #9
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    IMO: Ron Rivera is lost. Chud is not being used to his potential. Hurney is handicapping this organization. Cam needs practice under extreme pressure. Nakamura should be a back up. Fua should be cut. Silatoulu(sp) should be a back up. Did anyone else feel like driving a fist thru Pete Carrols face when he would over celebrate? Kinda classless.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killakatsfan View Post
    IMO: Ron Rivera is lost. Chud is not being used to his potential. Hurney is handicapping this organization. Cam needs practice under extreme pressure. Nakamura should be a back up. Fua should be cut. Silatoulu(sp) should be a back up. Did anyone else feel like driving a fist thru Pete Carrols face when he would over celebrate? Kinda classless.
    Overreaction. Rivera is not lost. Chud is in control of his own destiny. Hurney has hit more than he's missed. Newton just needs more experience -- we're expecting a second year QB to be perfect, why? Nakamura isn't any worse than Martin or a rookie S -- he'll get better with experience. Fua probably won't play much if/when Neblett rejoins the roster. Silatolu is a rookie, but he's still better than our backups. Let Carroll celebrate; he won't have many opportunities this season. Clearly beating the Panthers was a big milestone for them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.E.PanthersFan View Post
    Overreaction. Rivera is not lost. Chud is in control of his own destiny. Hurney has hit more than he's missed. Newton just needs more experience -- we're expecting a second year QB to be perfect, why? Nakamura isn't any worse than Martin or a rookie S -- he'll get better with experience. Fua probably won't play much if/when Neblett rejoins the roster. Silatolu is a rookie, but he's still better than our backups. Let Carroll celebrate; he won't have many opportunities this season. Clearly beating the Panthers was a big milestone for them.
    I don't know if I agree. I'm not the typical anti-Hurney fan, but I think it's time for him to go. Based on the last few drafts:

    2008
    1 13 Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon Hit
    1 19 Jeff Otah OT Pittsburgh Miss
    3 67 Charles Godfrey CB Iowa So-so
    3 74 Dan Connor LB Penn State Kinda miss
    5 141 Gary Barnidge TE Louisville N/A
    6 181 Nick Hayden DT Wisconsin Miss
    7 221 Hilee Taylor LB North Carolina Miss
    7 241 Geoff Schwartz OL Oregon Miss
    7 250 Mackenzy Bernadeau G Bentley Miss

    In the 2008 draft the only sure-fire hit was J-Stew, a top 15 pick. It's hard to screw those up. Huge miss on Otah that was costly. Godfrey I would say is a hit, but he's not that great. The only other pick that is still on the team is Barnidge and I think it's too soon to judge him, but so far he hasn't done anything.

    2009

    2 43 Everette Brown DE Florida State Miss
    2 59 Sherrod Martin CB Troy So-so/Miss
    3 93 Corvey Irvin DT Georgia Miss
    4 111 Mike Goodson RB Texas A&M Miss
    4 128 Tony Fiammetta FB Syracuse Miss
    5 163 Duke Robinson G Oklahoma Miss
    7 216 Captain Munnerlyn CB South Carolina Hit

    Brown was another huge, costly miss as we traded another future first. Sherrod and Munnerlyn are the only ones still on the team. Sherrodd lost the starting position and played like crap last year, but it's probably too soon to call him a miss. I'll say Munnerlyn, as bad as he is as a full-time starter, he's an absolute bargain for 7th round.

    2010
    2 48 Jimmy Clausen QB Notre Dame Miss
    3 78 Brandon LaFell WR LSU Hit/so-so
    3 89 Armanti EdwardsWR Appalachian State Miss
    4 124 Eric Norwood LB South Carolina Miss
    6 175 Greg Hardy DE Mississippi Hit
    6 175 David Gettis WR Baylor N/A
    6 202 Jordan Pugh DB Texas A&M Miss/N/A
    6 204 Tony Pike QB Cincinnati Miss
    7 223 R.J. Stanford DB Utah Miss
    7 249 Robert McClain DB Connecticut Miss

    2010 is a little soon for some, but it was a huge miss on every QB (3). Why would anyone take 3 QBs in one class (I know Edwards is a WR). Edwards was a huge miss that costed us the 33rd overall of 2011. Clausen was absolutely awful and a waste of a 2nd rounder/our first pick. LaFell is still early, but has done some things so far for a 3rd rounder. Norwood doesn't really fit, but is okay for S/T. Hardy is a hit for 6th round. Gettis hasn't done anything. Pugh is young, but mostly S/T. Pike, Stanford, and McClain are all gone.

    2011
    1 1 Cam Newton Quarterback Auburn Hit
    3 65 Terrell McClain Defensive Tackle South Florida Miss
    3 97 Sione Fua Defensive Tackle Stanford Miss/N/A
    4 98 Brandon Hogan Cornerback West Virginia N/A
    5 132 Kealoha Pilares Wide Receiver Hawaii Hit/N/A
    6 166 Lawrence Wilson Outside Linebacker Connecticut Miss
    6 203 Zachary Williams Center Washington State N/A
    7 244 Lee Ziemba Offensive Tackle Auburn N/A

    2011 and 2012 drafts are mostly speculation as most players are too young, but we clearly missed on McClain as he's gone. Fua looks like a miss since he's shown no signs of improvement. Hogan hasn't done anything. Pilares looks good. The rest are likely to be cut within a year.

    2012
    1 9 Luke Kuechly LB Boston College Hit
    2 42 Amini Silatolu G Midwestern State So-so
    4 103 Frank Alexander DE Oklahoma Hit
    4 104 Joe Adams WR Arkansas N/A
    5 143 Josh Norman CB Coastal Carolina So-so
    6 207 Brad Nortman P Wisconsin N/A
    7 216 D.J. Campbell S California N/A

    Kuechly looks to be a hit, Silatolu has looked okay in some games and lost in others, he's too young to judge yet and was a known project. Alexander has looked good for a 4th rounder. Adams has disappointed, but is a rookie. Norman has done well for what he's asked to do. Nortman is a punter, so he's hard to *****; I won't call a special teamer a hit or miss. Campbell hasn't done anything.

    As you can tell from these past few years, Hurney hasn't had many hits outside of the first round. The highlight of his drafts of 2009 and 2010 are Martin, Munnerlyn, LaFell, and Hardy; two of those aren't even starters and the other two aren't irreplaceable. He's averaging two hits per draft, but some of those hits are just hits for where they were drafted, not hits in the sense that they're awesome like our 1st rounders (minus Otah).

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaFan87 View Post
    You sir have no idea what you are talking about. Please vacate the area and no loitering in this forum.

    Thank you
    I have to say this was the funniest thing I've ever read to someone's comment before, we'll done too funny.

    Watching this game was the first time I've seen Carolina this year, does Steve smith normally get that many targets a game??
    \

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    2008
    1 13 Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon Hit
    1 19 Jeff Otah OT Pittsburgh Miss
    3 67 Charles Godfrey CB Iowa So-so
    3 74 Dan Connor LB Penn State Kinda miss
    5 141 Gary Barnidge TE Louisville N/A
    6 181 Nick Hayden DT Wisconsin Miss
    7 221 Hilee Taylor LB North Carolina Miss
    7 241 Geoff Schwartz OL Oregon Miss
    7 250 Mackenzy Bernadeau G Bentley Miss
    I wouldn't qualify Otah as a miss. If he had stayed healthy, that would easily have been a hit and we'd be talking about our top-5 O-line. Can't blame Hurney for Otah's injuries. Godfrey's better than a so-so. You can't expect every player on your team to be an all-star. You need some role players and Godfrey plays his role very well. I don't think Schwartz was a miss either. He gave us a couple good seasons before he got injured and we let him walk. If he doesn't get injured, he'd be on our roster and likely starting right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    2009

    2 43 Everette Brown DE Florida State Miss
    2 59 Sherrod Martin CB Troy So-so/Miss
    3 93 Corvey Irvin DT Georgia Miss
    4 111 Mike Goodson RB Texas A&M Miss
    4 128 Tony Fiammetta FB Syracuse Miss
    5 163 Duke Robinson G Oklahoma Miss
    7 216 Captain Munnerlyn CB South Carolina Hit
    Brown ended up being a mistake, but I put that as much on Fox as on Hurney. Hurney really should have known better than to draft a guy projected as a 3-4 OLB. I don't think Martin was a miss. He has started for this team, and if he didn't miss some tackles last year, he's likely still the starter. It will be interesting to see what his role will be after the bye week. Goodson's hardly a miss either. He put in some good work on this team stepping in when Williams and Stewart got injured.

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    2010
    2 48 Jimmy Clausen QB Notre Dame Miss
    3 78 Brandon LaFell WR LSU Hit/so-so
    3 89 Armanti EdwardsWR Appalachian State Miss
    4 124 Eric Norwood LB South Carolina Miss
    6 175 Greg Hardy DE Mississippi Hit
    6 175 David Gettis WR Baylor N/A
    6 202 Jordan Pugh DB Texas A&M Miss/N/A
    6 204 Tony Pike QB Cincinnati Miss
    7 223 R.J. Stanford DB Utah Miss
    7 249 Robert McClain DB Connecticut Miss
    This is where we start getting into "too soon to tell" territory. LaFell is the best WR2 we've had since Muhsin. I wouldn't qualify that as so-so; it addressed a major need. Edwards isn't a miss yet. We'll know his status by next year's draft. Gettis will be an interesting one. Eric Norwood is another case of drafting a 3-4 OLB onto a 4-3 team. Silly. Jordan Pugh in the sixth round was pretty much a hit too. He contributed meaningfully on ST, which is typically what one expects from most sixth rounders. Occasionally you have an Antonio Brown or a Greg Hardy who steps up their game, but that's the exception, not the rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    2011
    1 1 Cam Newton Quarterback Auburn Hit
    3 65 Terrell McClain Defensive Tackle South Florida Miss
    3 97 Sione Fua Defensive Tackle Stanford Miss/N/A
    4 98 Brandon Hogan Cornerback West Virginia N/A
    5 132 Kealoha Pilares Wide Receiver Hawaii Hit/N/A
    6 166 Lawrence Wilson Outside Linebacker Connecticut Miss
    6 203 Zachary Williams Center Washington State N/A
    7 244 Lee Ziemba Offensive Tackle Auburn N/A
    Agree. The interesting thing about this draft is that we knowingly took some big risks with Newton, Hogan, and Pilares. As far as Newton goes now, what character issues? Hogan has behaved himself, he just needs to get healthy. And Pilares is healthy and contributing. 2/3 so far is some pretty good risk-taking. I'm hoping Hogan can contribute when he gets healthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by manbearchef View Post
    2012
    1 9 Luke Kuechly LB Boston College Hit
    2 42 Amini Silatolu G Midwestern State So-so
    4 103 Frank Alexander DE Oklahoma Hit
    4 104 Joe Adams WR Arkansas N/A
    5 143 Josh Norman CB Coastal Carolina So-so
    6 207 Brad Nortman P Wisconsin N/A
    7 216 D.J. Campbell S California N/A
    I think Silatolu is going to be a hit within a couple years. It's way too soon to write him off, as some are willing to do. Same for Norman. The huge question mark is obviously Adams. We know how Rivera feels about fumbles (see Goodson), will be interesting to see how long Adams' leash is.

    I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on what qualifies a "hit". A "hit" to me is simply a good pick, someone that contributes. If someone (like Otah) contributes, gets injured, and stays injured, I can't blame Hurney for that. I don't think it's fair to say just because someone is no longer on the roster, they were a miss.

    The frustrating part is when he drafts personnel for the wrong system. I wouldn't hate seeing him gone, but if fans are expecting Richardson to bring in someone who likes big-name free agent moves, they've got another thing coming.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild1414 View Post
    I have to say this was the funniest thing I've ever read to someone's comment before, we'll done too funny.

    Watching this game was the first time I've seen Carolina this year, does Steve smith normally get that many targets a game??
    He normally gets a good amount of targets but for this game it was pretty high. Cam didn't go to Greg Olsen until 4th quarter and that is what contributed to Smiths high number of targets.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild1414 View Post
    I have to say this was the funniest thing I've ever read to someone's comment before, we'll done too funny.

    Watching this game was the first time I've seen Carolina this year, does Steve smith normally get that many targets a game??
    Smith normally does get around 8-10 targets per game (when we pass 30ish times), but yesterday, Cam was going early and often to Smith, and that was likely the problem. I think Cam threw most of those passes to Smith in the first half. I don't know if you were listening to the announcer in the game, but literally every pass play Olsen was either wide-open or open enough.

    I wouldn't qualify Otah as a miss. If he had stayed healthy, that would easily have been a hit and we'd be talking about our top-5 O-line. Can't blame Hurney for Otah's injuries. Godfrey's better than a so-so. You can't expect every player on your team to be an all-star. You need some role players and Godfrey plays his role very well. I don't think Schwartz was a miss either. He gave us a couple good seasons before he got injured and we let him walk. If he doesn't get injured, he'd be on our roster and likely starting right now.
    I think you and I have a huge difference in the definition of a hit/miss for a GM. Otah costed us a 1st rounder and I believe our 2nd rounder and all we got in the exchange was a fat slob who only tried for two seasons, then couldn't stay in shape or healthy. Hurney made the decision, Hurney deserves the blame. Godfrey is probably a hit, but he's also not that great. He misses tackles (less than Sherrod, but still) and has had blown coverages. He's doing well this year, so I'll just agree that he's probably a hit. Schwartz was great depth, but again, I'm not really considering a 'hit' as a player doing what they were expected to do; be a back-up.

    Brown ended up being a mistake, but I put that as much on Fox as on Hurney. Hurney really should have known better than to draft a guy projected as a 3-4 OLB. I don't think Martin was a miss. He has started for this team, and if he didn't miss some tackles last year, he's likely still the starter. It will be interesting to see what his role will be after the bye week. Goodson's hardly a miss either. He put in some good work on this team stepping in when Williams and Stewart got injured.
    You can blame the coach and the GM if you choose, but Hurney's job is to make the picks. Most people knew Brown was a mistake from the get-go. The only people who were optimistic about Brown were those who thought it was a sign that were were switching to a 3-4 (around the time Peppers was wanting to be in a 3-4). Martin was a 2nd round pick (top 50) and was terrible last year. As of now, I don't consider him a hit at all. Maybe so-so. Goodson was extremely fumble-prone and could've been used on a different position (I'm not going to hold that against him or Hurney). He did okay for us at times, but he was a miss for the most part. He's no longer on the team and can no longer change his outcome with the team.

    This is where we start getting into "too soon to tell" territory. LaFell is the best WR2 we've had since Muhsin. I wouldn't qualify that as so-so; it addressed a major need. Edwards isn't a miss yet. We'll know his status by next year's draft. Gettis will be an interesting one. Eric Norwood is another case of drafting a 3-4 OLB onto a 4-3 team. Silly. Jordan Pugh in the sixth round was pretty much a hit too. He contributed meaningfully on ST, which is typically what one expects from most sixth rounders. Occasionally you have an Antonio Brown or a Greg Hardy who steps up their game, but that's the exception, not the rule.
    As you and I said, these are just speculation from this point, but while LaFell is the best WR we've had in years, that doesn't make him an auto-hit. I think he is personally, but we'll wait on it. Edwards costed us the 33rd pick and he hasn't even had a reception in his 2.25 seasons. That's all on Hurney for making that stupid trade. Gettis can't seem to stay healthy, but showed signs his rookie year, but thus far hasn't really contributed to anything. Norwood was another 3-4 waste from Hurney. Pugh has done his S/T duties. That's what's expected of a 6th round DB in most cases.

    I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on what qualifies a "hit". A "hit" to me is simply a good pick, someone that contributes. If someone (like Otah) contributes, gets injured, and stays injured, I can't blame Hurney for that. I don't think it's fair to say just because someone is no longer on the roster, they were a miss.
    See, I don't agree with that judgment of a hit. I think if a player is drafted at a certain spot and does what's expected (late rounder plays S/T, mid-rounder provides depth) it's not a hit, it's just what's expected. I think a hit is getting meaningful players/difference makers outside of round 1, which he hasn't done very much of in recent years. The best late pick he's made in a long time was Captain Munnerlyn in round 7. I think if someone isn't around anymore they were clearly a miss for this team.

    The frustrating part is when he drafts personnel for the wrong system. I wouldn't hate seeing him gone, but if fans are expecting Richardson to bring in someone who likes big-name free agent moves, they've got another thing coming.
    I agree, but I think that can be detrimental to a team. If you have someone who could be talented, but can't be talented in your scheme, what's the point in having them? I'm not particularly wanting someone who wants to throw money at FA's, I just want someone who will do a better job overall. At this point, we'd be better off with just getting rid of him altogether. I hate how much he likes to trade future picks (went out of his way to do it this year, though Frank Alexander has looked good). The only place he's really hitting well is the 1st round, which is supposed to be the easiest. I want someone who can hit on most of their 1st and 2nd rounders at least, especially when they're typically top 15.

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