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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves14
    Hanson would be a steal, especially considering he'll be our #2 or #3 pitcher
    Nah.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA
    Wren suggested that he's not a fan of the Wild Card format and that he'd like to see the system amended to give the Wild Card teams a three-game series, beginning with a day-night double-header.
    Whining. Give it up Wren, the Braves still would not have won the series. They had their shot and they blew it, like so many times before. You had your best pitcher on the mound, in your home park, against a team that tends to struggle on the road. And your team wet the bed, starting with your best player, and the opposition capitalized on every mistake and beat you without even needing their best starter on the mound.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    Whining. Give it up Wren, the Braves still would not have won the series. They had their shot and they blew it, like so many times before. You had your best pitcher on the mound, in your home park, against a team that tends to struggle on the road. And your team wet the bed, starting with your best player, and the opposition capitalized on every mistake and beat you without even needing their best starter on the mound.
    so you agree with this 1 game playoff? take a team that won 94 games over 8 months of baseball and force them to play 1 game against a team that won 6 fewer games? This sounds pretty stupid to me. Baseball playoff series have traditionally been best of 5 or best of 7. If bud wants more teams in the playoffs, why doesn't he just expand it to inculde 6 teams? The NHL and NBA both have 8 teams from each league / conference that make the playoffs and the NFL has 6. Surely the MLB can expand to include 6 teams.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomass
    so you agree with this 1 game playoff?
    No, but every team knew the stakes and played by the same rules. The Braves had almost everything in their favor and still handed that game to the Cardinals with their own screw-ups, so I don't want to hear/read my GM crying about the format now. His team wasn't tough enough or (ahem) "clutch" enough to get it done. He can either call them out for another piss-poor effort or just keep it himself and focus on building a stronger team in 2013.

  5. #80
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    i'm all for trading hanson. if it came down to it, 6.5 for maholm (vet lefty, was really good for us) is better than a gamble on hanson. couldn't we get more for minor though? i like minor as much as the next guy, but he has better upside, imo, and as streaky as he was, i think he's more of a sure bet than hanson. if we can get a good OF (span) or serviceable 3B or 2B with a minor trade, i think i would be able to stomach the dice-rolling of keeping hanson.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    No, but every team knew the stakes and played by the same rules. The Braves had almost everything in their favor and still handed that game to the Cardinals with their own screw-ups, so I don't want to hear/read my GM crying about the format now. His team wasn't tough enough or (ahem) "clutch" enough to get it done. He can either call them out for another piss-poor effort or just keep it himself and focus on building a stronger team in 2013.
    Agree with you. There is always however......that evasive and hidden outfield fly rule.........
    1991 Lost WS to Twins 4-3
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    No, but every team knew the stakes and played by the same rules. The Braves had almost everything in their favor and still handed that game to the Cardinals with their own screw-ups, so I don't want to hear/read my GM crying about the format now. His team wasn't tough enough or (ahem) "clutch" enough to get it done. He can either call them out for another piss-poor effort or just keep it himself and focus on building a stronger team in 2013.
    So he cannot express his opinion? If I acknowledged it's a stupid format, you acknowledge it is stupid, and most people in baseball acknowledge it is stupid, why cant FW acknowledge that it is stupid?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony b. View Post
    I think Wren makes a move for an outfielder that can platoon in left and kills lefties. That opens Prado to play 3rd when a lefty is on the mound. It also means that Juan Fransisco is the 3rd baseman against righties. Resigning Ross, picking up the options on McCann and Maholm. A veteran ss and 1b. Pastornicky back to minors and then a CF option of about 10 mil per for 4-5 years. Maybe a B.J. Upton or Shane Victorino. possibly a trade for Denard Span. I wouldn't mind seeing Ichiro come over for about 2 years. He had a much better season when he moved to the Yanks.
    Not enough to make an impact. If this is all he does, we're in for a long year and if we get to the playoffs, another failure. We need at least 2, preferably 3 impact players, like Hamilton and Upton or Quentin and Upton.......Losing Chipper and gaining Upton isn't enough. Not even close.
    1991 Lost WS to Twins 4-3
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    1999 Lost WS 4-0 to Yankees
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    2012 Lost NLWC 1-0 to Cardinals
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildogdco View Post
    You haven't sold me... you just said hopes and dreams that this should work. I would rather get specs and then after next year you let Maholm walk and then you have Medlen, Minor, Beachy, Teheran, Delgado (assuming Hudson retires or walks). Trade Hanson while he still has value and is controlable for 3 years (I think its 3). Vice letting a servicible pitcher walk away for nothing and then Hanson walk away for nothing (Boras client) or face plan like JJ did this year. If you want to role the dice on Hanson then by all means that is your opinion. You have done nothing to sway me from my stance.

    Does anyone else have an opinion on this matter?
    I see your point, I just think Hanson deserves at least the first half of next year to get his mechanics straight and start to realize his potential.

    What you don't want to do is give up on a young pitcher too early and trade him for far less than he's worth.

    This is a great article on Hanson and his mechanics: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-the-velocity/

    All of those problems that he pointed out, are the problems Hanson/McDowell will be working on in the winter/ST.

    I also doubt that Wren is ready to give up on him as well, so I would highly doubt that we see Hanson traded.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    Nah.
    You almost certainly would have said the same thing about Medlen this time last year. It's baseball. Give Hanson time to rehab the shoulder, fix his mechanics, and there is no reason he can't be the ace-like pitcher he was for the better part of 2011.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braves14 View Post
    We're going to have to re-sign Bourn. We're probably going to have to pay a hefty price to do it as well. 5/75 doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility, considering how thin the free agent market is. That figure might even be a tad low. Whomever Wren gets to play center field, will almost surely double as the leadoff hitter, I can't think of many AVAILABLE center fielders that fit the bill if Wren were to go for a trade.
    Actually, there are a lot of available center fielders who will be better value propositions than paying a speed player who is entering his 30s and strikes out way too much $16 million per year or more. Look through this thread and you'll see four or five names that have been tossed around as reasonable targets. I'd love to have Bourn back, but all signs point to his demands being off the charts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Braves14 View Post
    So, I'd say that $4M for Hanson would be a steal, especially considering he'll be our #2 or #3 pitcher, rather than a #4 or #5.
    I like Hanson more than just about everyone on this board, and I agree with you that more time with his new delivery will help get him back on track. But even with that said, I'm not at all comfortable making him a #2 or #3 starter. Fortunately, he'll be able to line up at the back of the rotation, if he's kept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    That's why he needs a few years to develop under a better SS option. He throws temper tanrums, he ran out of the basepath and had a throwing error in our biggest game of the year. Ok, so Castro isn't an option because of his extension. What about former Brave Elvis Andrus, Alcides Escobar, JJ Hardy or Ian Desmond?
    When has he ever thrown a temper tantrum? Again, Chipper Jones also had a throwing error in the biggest game of the year, so that tells us...what exactly? And while he was out of the base line and that was a mistake, he wasn't THAT far off. Looked way more like him just running hard than anything else. And for the Braves to be using their limited trade chips to get players at a position where they already have a solid option (as opposed to third base and center field, where they have no one)...that's just not good business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    I think we'll win the war for Hamilton, at least I sure hope we do, and he will cost around 22 million per year, maybe a 3 year 66 million dollar deal.
    And I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks this. Both Braves' beat writers have already said the Braves won't be going after Hamilton, and your $22 million would eat up just about all of the Braves' available salary space (without solving third base or the bench). It ain't happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    I wonder if we do some salary dumping if we'll have enough for B.J. Upton also.....I like someones idea earlier of bringing in both Upton's too if we can't get Hamilton. I like A.J. Pierzynski as BMAC's replacement. Other good FA's for our OF: Carlos Quentin, Andre Ethier, Torii Hunter and Angel Pagan. There's no reason why we can't fill both OF holes with two of these names.
    Yes, there is a reason why they can't fill both OF holes with two of those names: money. Unless you're writing a big donation check to the Braves Payroll Fund, there's only about $25 million to spend. Also, what free agent list are you using? Quentin and Ethier have both signed extensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    As for Uggla..........man, we might be stuck eating a portion of his salary, but we can't just keep playing with his giant lack of production and stupidity at the plate always swinging out of his shoes. I'm good bringing someone up from the minors or trading for a 2B prospect if we have to and leaving Uggs on the bench if that's what we have to do. It's really ridiculous he's such a giant expensive thorn in our side right now.
    Who do the Braves have in the minors that could be a top-10 second baseman? I get that he's overpaid, but I don't see how you can call him a "giant lack of production" when he was better than the likes of Rickie Weeks and Howie Kendrick and barely worse than guys like Brandon Phillips, Jason Kipnis and Jose Altuve. I mean, he's not Robinson Cano or anything, but there's only one Robinson Cano.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    Whining. Give it up Wren, the Braves still would not have won the series. They had their shot and they blew it, like so many times before. You had your best pitcher on the mound, in your home park, against a team that tends to struggle on the road. And your team wet the bed, starting with your best player, and the opposition capitalized on every mistake and beat you without even needing their best starter on the mound.
    I think it's you who is whining here. There's a great chance given a three-game set that the Braves would have recovered and come back to win. They were the better team on paper, and the more games you play, the more chance that the better team on paper will end up winning. I get that the Braves were outplayed in every facet of the game. I watched just like you did. But that doesn't mean the same would have happened for three games in a row. The likelihood of all that crazy stuff (runner interference, three throwing errors, "infield fly" call) happening in three straight games is unfathomably low.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    No, but every team knew the stakes and played by the same rules. The Braves had almost everything in their favor and still handed that game to the Cardinals with their own screw-ups, so I don't want to hear/read my GM crying about the format now. His team wasn't tough enough or (ahem) "clutch" enough to get it done. He can either call them out for another piss-poor effort or just keep it himself and focus on building a stronger team in 2013.
    Just because the Braves "knew the stakes and played by the same rules" doesn't mean they have to like those stakes and rules. In baseball, the nature of the game is even the factors that you CAN have in your favor don't make that big of a difference. Especially not among two teams that were good enough to be in the top five in their league. Wren isn't "crying" about the format; he's stating a pretty common opinion that it's ridiculous to make the outcome of a 162-game season depend on one game. In fact, he probably held that opinion before he ever knew the Braves would lose, and frankly he probably would've held that opinion even if the Braves had won. I bet you could even ask most of the Cardinals brass--whose team was "clutch" enough to get it done--and they would say it's a silly format. There's no connection between Wren's opinion and the fact that the Braves' lost. They didn't lose because of a piss-poor effort or a lack of talent. They lost because one lousy game is random as hell and sometimes the breaks just don't fall your way. Hence the need for more than one game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    Not enough to make an impact. If this is all he does, we're in for a long year and if we get to the playoffs, another failure. We need at least 2, preferably 3 impact players, like Hamilton and Upton or Quentin and Upton.......Losing Chipper and gaining Upton isn't enough. Not even close.
    If this is what you think, then seriously, give up now. Hamilton is not coming to Atlanta. Carlos Quentin is definitely not coming to Atlanta, after signing an extension in San Diego. The solutions at third base and in left field (plus a few bench players) have to fit into a $25 million budget, so it's not like the Braves are going to be running a lineup of All-Stars out there next year. I am confident they'll make some solid acquisitions, but if you think it's two studs or bust, I can tell you right now they're going to bust.

    Chipper Jones had a very good season, but making up for it shouldn't be that difficult. Improvements from the rest of the lineup, plus some solid additions, should be sufficient to replace 3 WAR.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtgthree
    I think it's you who is whining here. There's a great chance given a three-game set that the Braves would have recovered and come back to win. They were the better team on paper, and the more games you play, the more chance that the better team on paper will end up winning. I get that the Braves were outplayed in every facet of the game. I watched just like you did. But that doesn't mean the same would have happened for three games in a row. The likelihood of all that crazy stuff (runner interference, three throwing errors, "infield fly" call) happening in three straight games is unfathomably low.
    Spoken like a true apologist and company man. "A great chance", you say? Here's a stat for you: The Braves have lost their last seven Game 1s of a postseason round. Seven. Outscored 40-18 in those games. I don't have to tell you how each of those rounds ended for them. The Cardinals, on the other hand, have proven they can handle the pressure of elimination games in recent years, especially in their own building. The Braves simply have not shown much resiliency and toughness in recent postseasons because they cannot get out of their own way, and when things start going badly, they allow it to snowball. If my comments upset you, oh well. Just know it's based on evidence they provided.
    Last edited by Bravo95; 10-10-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtgthree View Post
    Actually, there are a lot of available center fielders who will be better value propositions than paying a speed player who is entering his 30s and strikes out way too much $16 million per year or more. Look through this thread and you'll see four or five names that have been tossed around as reasonable targets. I'd love to have Bourn back, but all signs point to his demands being off the charts.



    I like Hanson more than just about everyone on this board, and I agree with you that more time with his new delivery will help get him back on track. But even with that said, I'm not at all comfortable making him a #2 or #3 starter. Fortunately, he'll be able to line up at the back of the rotation, if he's kept.



    When has he ever thrown a temper tantrum? Again, Chipper Jones also had a throwing error in the biggest game of the year, so that tells us...what exactly? And while he was out of the base line and that was a mistake, he wasn't THAT far off. Looked way more like him just running hard than anything else. And for the Braves to be using their limited trade chips to get players at a position where they already have a solid option (as opposed to third base and center field, where they have no one)...that's just not good business.



    And I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks this. Both Braves' beat writers have already said the Braves won't be going after Hamilton, and your $22 million would eat up just about all of the Braves' available salary space (without solving third base or the bench). It ain't happening.



    Yes, there is a reason why they can't fill both OF holes with two of those names: money. Unless you're writing a big donation check to the Braves Payroll Fund, there's only about $25 million to spend. Also, what free agent list are you using? Quentin and Ethier have both signed extensions.



    Who do the Braves have in the minors that could be a top-10 second baseman? I get that he's overpaid, but I don't see how you can call him a "giant lack of production" when he was better than the likes of Rickie Weeks and Howie Kendrick and barely worse than guys like Brandon Phillips, Jason Kipnis and Jose Altuve. I mean, he's not Robinson Cano or anything, but there's only one Robinson Cano.



    I think it's you who is whining here. There's a great chance given a three-game set that the Braves would have recovered and come back to win. They were the better team on paper, and the more games you play, the more chance that the better team on paper will end up winning. I get that the Braves were outplayed in every facet of the game. I watched just like you did. But that doesn't mean the same would have happened for three games in a row. The likelihood of all that crazy stuff (runner interference, three throwing errors, "infield fly" call) happening in three straight games is unfathomably low.



    Just because the Braves "knew the stakes and played by the same rules" doesn't mean they have to like those stakes and rules. In baseball, the nature of the game is even the factors that you CAN have in your favor don't make that big of a difference. Especially not among two teams that were good enough to be in the top five in their league. Wren isn't "crying" about the format; he's stating a pretty common opinion that it's ridiculous to make the outcome of a 162-game season depend on one game. In fact, he probably held that opinion before he ever knew the Braves would lose, and frankly he probably would've held that opinion even if the Braves had won. I bet you could even ask most of the Cardinals brass--whose team was "clutch" enough to get it done--and they would say it's a silly format. There's no connection between Wren's opinion and the fact that the Braves' lost. They didn't lose because of a piss-poor effort or a lack of talent. They lost because one lousy game is random as hell and sometimes the breaks just don't fall your way. Hence the need for more than one game.



    If this is what you think, then seriously, give up now. Hamilton is not coming to Atlanta. Carlos Quentin is definitely not coming to Atlanta, after signing an extension in San Diego. The solutions at third base and in left field (plus a few bench players) have to fit into a $25 million budget, so it's not like the Braves are going to be running a lineup of All-Stars out there next year. I am confident they'll make some solid acquisitions, but if you think it's two studs or bust, I can tell you right now they're going to bust.

    Chipper Jones had a very good season, but making up for it shouldn't be that difficult. Improvements from the rest of the lineup, plus some solid additions, should be sufficient to replace 3 WAR.
    We don't need a third baseman. We have Prado, enough said. Our needs are CF, LF, 2B and C. Allthough it looks like we're only going to be addressing CF and LF. I like the idea of Prado at 3B, he's solid. I concede we're ok at SS, and we're good at RF and 1B. Our pitching is already solid and if Greinke wants to come to ATL, I'm cool with that for sure. And Carlos Quentin was on this list: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013-mlb-free-agents/ He must've just signed or the list is out of date.
    Last edited by Getting UGGLA; 10-10-2012 at 12:53 PM.
    1991 Lost WS to Twins 4-3
    1992 Lost WS to Blue Jays 4-2
    1993 Lost NLCS to Phillies 4-2
    1996 Lost WS to Yankees 4-2 (led 2-0)
    1997 Lost NLCS to Marlins 4-2
    1998 Lost NLCS to Padres 4-2
    1999 Lost WS 4-0 to Yankees
    2000 Lost NLDS 3-0 to Cardinals
    2001 Lost NLCS to Diamondbacks 4-1
    2002 Lost NLDS 3-2 to Giants
    2003 Lost NLDS 3-2 to Cubs
    2004 Lost NLDS 3-2 to Astros
    2005 Lost NLDS 3-1 to Astros
    2010 Lost NLDS 3-1 to Giants
    2012 Lost NLWC 1-0 to Cardinals
    2013 Lost NLDS 3-1 to Dodgers

  14. #89
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    12 million is far too much to exercise on McCann when he is a giant ? and Ross has been nothing short of hero for us. Use that money for a LF.
    1991 Lost WS to Twins 4-3
    1992 Lost WS to Blue Jays 4-2
    1993 Lost NLCS to Phillies 4-2
    1996 Lost WS to Yankees 4-2 (led 2-0)
    1997 Lost NLCS to Marlins 4-2
    1998 Lost NLCS to Padres 4-2
    1999 Lost WS 4-0 to Yankees
    2000 Lost NLDS 3-0 to Cardinals
    2001 Lost NLCS to Diamondbacks 4-1
    2002 Lost NLDS 3-2 to Giants
    2003 Lost NLDS 3-2 to Cubs
    2004 Lost NLDS 3-2 to Astros
    2005 Lost NLDS 3-1 to Astros
    2010 Lost NLDS 3-1 to Giants
    2012 Lost NLWC 1-0 to Cardinals
    2013 Lost NLDS 3-1 to Dodgers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo95 View Post
    Spoken like a true apologist and company man. "A great chance", you say? Here's a stat for you: The Braves have lost their last seven Game 1s of a postseason round. Seven. Outscored 40-18 in those games. I don't have to tell you how each of those rounds ended for them. The Cardinals, on the other hand, have proven they can handle the pressure of elimination games in recent years, especially in their own building. The Braves simply have not shown much resiliency and toughness in recent postseasons because they cannot get out of their own way, and when things start going badly, they allow it to snowball. If my comments upset you, oh well. Just know it's based on evidence they provided.
    No, spoken like someone who realizes that random chance has a lot more to do with the outcome of a single game than the fact that the Braves lost a similar game 11 years ago. When I say "a great chance," I mean at least 25%, or a 50-50 chance in each game.

    You don't really think that the game 1 loss in the 2001 NLCS has any bearing at all on this year's loss. How many players from that team are still around anywhere in the organization? Is it something the clubhouse guys mix into the Gatorade or what? Five of the seven losses you mention (2005 and before) are completely irrelevant. There are some holdovers from the 2010 team, but that's two games. Randomness is still way more of a factor than some imagined concept of "resiliency and toughness." These are professional athletes. If they couldn't handle pressure, they wouldn't be professional athletes. Clutch performance is a story we fans like to invent because it adds drama and makes things fun to watch, but it's not real.

    Your comments don't upset me at all. They're just not based in any kind of evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    We don't need a third baseman. We have Prado, enough said. Our needs are CF, LF, 2B and C. Allthough it looks like we're only going to be addressing CF and LF. I like the idea of Prado at 3B, he's solid. I concede we're ok at SS, and we're good at RF and 1B. Our pitching is already solid and if Greinke wants to come to ATL, I'm cool with that for sure. And Carlos Quentin was on this list: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013-mlb-free-agents/ He must've just signed or the list is out of date.
    That was a typo on my part. I meant third base OR left field (depending on where Prado plays) and center field. I'm glad to see you accept that Uggla and McCann aren't going anywhere...all of us wish we could upgrade at those positions from the way those two performed in 2012, but there just isn't much choice given the payroll considerations.

    And for the record, Quentin signed an extension on July 22.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getting UGGLA View Post
    12 million is far too much to exercise on McCann when he is a giant ? and Ross has been nothing short of hero for us. Use that money for a LF.
    I can agree that $12 million is a lot to lay out for a guy that may not even outperform David Ross next year. The problem for the Braves is twofold: there's a huge PR hit from just releasing a fan favorite like Brian McCann, and Ross has never been an everyday catcher. At age 36, there's a huge risk of decline and overexposure. And frankly, I don't think there's that much need for too much extra cash. The Braves can use young pitching trade chips to fill either left or center with a cheap, controllable player, and it's not like signing a big-money contract is something the Braves want to do anyway. Take a guy like Josh Hamilton...even if they could free up money to sign him, his age and health history indicate that he'd quickly turn into another Dan Uggla contract, on a much larger scale.

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