M's Offseason Discussion

[Rain City]

i dont know much about v-cat and for some reason i thought he was known for his D, saw him in tacoma play sick 3b but that was only 1 game....

triunfel can play ss,3b, and 2b, and his arm is a legit + tool... i think age definitely helps triunfell get a better grade.

i dont have a lot to go off but i remember when triunfel was a top spec, hes had some bad breaks. it seems like triunfel is at least a utility player (maybe better suited for NL), this year could be telling to see if his one-time ceiling can be realized and be looked at as a starter.

[jej]

But Truinfel has been AWFUL offensively. Its not like he is a little below average, and VCat is a little above. Its been a blowout.

Their value depends on the team.

[FWBrodie]

Jej, your ability to put statistics into context is your problem. You're comparing numbers straight across the board for all of these players without any context weighing on the comparisons. That's a young mistake.

[jej]

How so?

I realize their position matters, that wasnt my point. My point was VCat was amazing offensively while Triunfel was below average, and you act like that doesnt matter at all.

[FWBrodie]

But Truinfel has been AWFUL offensively. Its not like he is a little below average, and VCat is a little above. Its been a blowout.

Their value depends on the team.

VCat was just grossly overmatched at age 23 in AAA, while Triunfel was not. Put it this way, Catricala's performance was completely unacceptable for a corner bat while Triunfel's production at SS (which was better than VCat even in a vacuum) was passable if not encouraging and he's got more age-related upside.

[jej]

I understand what you are saying. But the bat overall means something. Its rare for someone to be THAT GOOD and then fall off forever.

[FWBrodie]

How so?

I realize their position matters, that wasnt my point. My point was VCat was amazing offensively while Triunfel was below average, and you act like that doesnt matter at all.

It does matter, but you can't let Catricala mash against a bunch of teenagers at age 22 and then compare his numbers to a teenager who was trying to hit against older and more advanced pitching. If Carlos Peguero hits 40 HR's in Tacoma at age 25, you don't compare those numbers to Montero's at age 21 and say Peguero is the better player. That would be ridiculous, but that's what you're trying to do.

[jej]

Thats not what Im trying to do. I just think that their age difference isnt as extreme as you think when you consider that Triunfel has had more time against professionals. VCat was in college playing against a lot of people who will never do anything more with baseball, whereas Triunfel was getting experience against real ball players.

I dont think its a blowout like you said. I think it depends on what the team needs and what they value.

[FWBrodie]

I understand what you are saying. But the bat overall means something. Its rare for someone to be THAT GOOD and then fall off forever.

He was old for his leagues. I mean we all hoped it wasn't the case, and maybe it turns out not to be, but now we have to really wonder until he proves otherwise. On the opposite side of the coin, we can attribute some of Triunfel's struggles to being pushed hard and fast his whole career until proven otherwise. Both of them need to produce in Tacoma this year, but if Catricala doesn't he becomes pretty much valueless at his age and without much in his glove, while Triunfel will probably have a big league career just due to his glove even if his bat doesn't get a lot better.

[jej]

You keep talking about his glove, when I have heard it isnt anything special.

[FWBrodie]

Thats not what Im trying to do. I just think that their age difference isnt as extreme as you think when you consider that Triunfel has had more time against professionals. VCat was in college playing against a lot of people who will never do anything more with baseball, whereas Triunfel was getting experience against real ball players.

I dont think its a blowout like you said. I think it depends on what the team needs and what they value.

If VCat was in AAA at 21 as Triunfel was, would he have put up those amazing offensive numbers? Based on what we saw last season probably not. Would Triunfel's numbers last season have been way better if he was hitting in High Desert as Catricala did at that age? Without a doubt.

As for the college thing, sorry that's just not how it works.

[FWBrodie]

You keep talking about his glove, when I have heard it isnt anything special.

It's passable at shortstop. That alone is special. An okay shortstop is far more valuable defensively than an okay corner outfielder. If Catricala was a SS, this would be an entirely different conversation.

[A.Mopp]

Upton put us on his no trade. Could mean he doesn't want to be here, but could also mean he wants leverage if we do trade for him.

Either way, it may mean we are showing interest and he knows it.

yeah it all a leverage play for an extension or whatever. he wants to have some power in the situation

[Iansnightout]

i dont say id go that far. But perhaps, maybe AAA just exposed some stuff. but He was crushing the ball all the way to AAA. I was never over the moon for him, but he had fantastic numbers, another year in AAA will say a lot. just look at his stats. But the lack of position is killing him

http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=catric001vin

he had great OPB and slugging

but now his value is minimal for sure. better just to keep him and see if he can rebound, he wont be a major part in a deal

That's because he hit .359. He's not that good. Not close.

and Brodie, I've always heard about Triunfel being bad in SS with his errors. I've never once heard he was elite.

[Iansnightout]

For the record, I'd rather hope for VCat's bat to come back than stick with Triunfel. Gun to my head, pick one.

We have plenty of SS. Three in the system I prefer without an ounce of research.

Ryan, Franklin and Miller