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  1. #61
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    I hate the fact that the media keeps using the argument of Cabrera going to the playoffs. So now we reward teams for what division they play in? The Angels finish with a better record and had to face tougher opponents down the stretch while The Tigers got the luxury of facing the Royals, Twins, and Indians. I hope the voters are smart enough to throw that thought out when making the decision and just use stats, and stats say Trout wins.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboyblu View Post
    I hate the Angels but Mike Trout deserves the AL MVP
    The counted votes won't be as close as people think. Achieving #1 with three most-major, common stats, sure beats achieving #1 with five lesser ranked stats.

    Miggy wins the MVP and Trout gets robbed of nothing. Trout just picked the wrong season to accomplish all those extraordinary, lesser ranked feats.

    Due to his accomplishments, there would be many seasons where Trout gets the MVP Award.
    But not in 2012. Triple Crowns are top-of-the-mountain and very rare.
    Miguel Cabrera was the best and most valuable player in MLB during 2012. He currently sits atop Mount Sinai and could write his own MLB 10 Commandments right now.

    Congrats to Miggy ... job well done.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotownWebGuy View Post
    The counted votes won't be as close as people think. Achieving #1 with three most-major, common stats, sure beats achieving #1 with five lesser ranked stats.

    Miggy wins the MVP and Trout gets robbed of nothing. Trout just picked the wrong season to accomplish all those extraordinary, lesser ranked feats.

    Due to his accomplishments, there would be many seasons where Trout gets the MVP Award.
    But not in 2012. Triple Crowns are top-of-the-mountain and very rare.
    Miguel Cabrera was the best and most valuable player in MLB during 2012. He currently sits atop Mount Sinai and could write his own MLB 10 Commandments right now.

    Congrats to Miggy ... job well done.
    Good Lord

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Nope, it's really, really easy to call them moronic when they make a moronic call like giving Cabrera the MVP over Trout.

    First, it's an individual award, so what "he and his team accomplished" should mean jack. Plus, if the Angels are in the AL Central, they win that division easily, and the only thing "he and his team" would've accomplished was coming in second place. It's absurd to penalize Trout because he wasn't able to keep the Angels out of a clearly stronger AL West.

    Second, the Triple Crown is literally just a collection of arbitrary stats that were once designated as important, but that we now realize no longer are. Using them as the reason he should win MVP is a dangerous thing, though. Is he somehow less valuable if Josh Hamilton hits a couple more HRs and he doesn't win that part of the Triple Crown? Is he somehow less valuable if Trout is up a week sooner and spends that week making few outs, ending the season with a better AVG? Of course not. To add a twist of irony to it, Cabrera's 2011, when he didn't win the Triple Crown, was a better overall season. If he shouldn't win it then, it's hard to argue that a lesser season but one in which he manages to top those three categories is the season he should win it in.

    Third, Cabrera and Trout are virtually identical offensively:

    wOBA
    Cabrera: .417
    Trout: .409

    wRC+
    Cabrera: 166
    Trout: 166

    But, offense is not all a player does. If he doesn't hit a HR, then he can also create or lose runs based on his baserunning skills. Trout destroys Cabrera here, and of that there is obviously no question. There's also what he does with a glove on, and again Trout destroys Cabrera, despite the morons that didn't give him a Gold Glove, and again there's no question about this. So, yeah, Cabrera won the Triple Crown and had a great offensive year. Trout had an almost equally great offensive year, and was also the best defensive CFer in the game, and an elite baserunner. It is impossible to take all those facts together and say that Miguel Cabrera was more valuable because his team played in the AL Central, his bullpen didn't meltdown, and he led in three random offensive categories.

    And that is why it's easy to call the voters moronic.
    I disagree with your argument on several levels. First of all, the Most Valuable Player means they are "Most Valuable" to their team and the game. Take Cabrera off the Tigers and they are quite mediocre. He had the HIGHEST batting average from the 7th inning on in ALL OF BASEBALL. He won so many games for the Tigers it's ridiculous. Secondly, to call batting average, home runs and RBI's just a collection of "arbitrary stats" and "random offensive categories" is insane. That's like saying "ERA and wins and losses " are just some arbitrary pitching stat. C'mon, let's not kid ourselves. Those are THE top three stats any offensive player could have. Also, saying Detroit was in a weak division is not fair. In the playoffs, Detroit beat the A's (in your division)--while the A's had home-field advantage, then swept the Yankees (arguably the best team in the AL) to go to the WS. Yeah, they stunk it up there due to the long layoff, etc. But Cabrera got them there. Period.


    "Lions, Tigers and Pistons, OH MY!" (and Hoosiers...and Redwings....)

  5. #65
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    i will say this for Cabrerra, in any kind of "clutch" category, he led the league in all of them while trout was just average.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotownWebGuy View Post
    The counted votes won't be as close as people think. Achieving #1 with three most-major, common stats, sure beats achieving #1 with five lesser ranked stats.

    Miggy wins the MVP and Trout gets robbed of nothing. Trout just picked the wrong season to accomplish all those extraordinary, lesser ranked feats.

    Due to his accomplishments, there would be many seasons where Trout gets the MVP Award.
    But not in 2012. Triple Crowns are top-of-the-mountain and very rare.
    Miguel Cabrera was the best and most valuable player in MLB during 2012. He currently sits atop Mount Sinai and could write his own MLB 10 Commandments right now.

    Congrats to Miggy ... job well done.
    Instead of taking the time to point out how absurdly wrong you are, I'll just point you to my post a page back.
    Visit my Blog.



    "Glad the GOP finally came out with an Obamacare alternative. Can't wait to see their alternative to the Iraq War." - @LOLGOP

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by iu92grad View Post
    I disagree with your argument on several levels. First of all, the Most Valuable Player means they are "Most Valuable" to their team and the game. Take Cabrera off the Tigers and they are quite mediocre. He had the HIGHEST batting average from the 7th inning on in ALL OF BASEBALL. He won so many games for the Tigers it's ridiculous. Secondly, to call batting average, home runs and RBI's just a collection of "arbitrary stats" and "random offensive categories" is insane. That's like saying "ERA and wins and losses " are just some arbitrary pitching stat. C'mon, let's not kid ourselves. Those are THE top three stats any offensive player could have. Also, saying Detroit was in a weak division is not fair. In the playoffs, Detroit beat the A's (in your division)--while the A's had home-field advantage, then swept the Yankees (arguably the best team in the AL) to go to the WS. Yeah, they stunk it up there due to the long layoff, etc. But Cabrera got them there. Period.
    Your argument destroys itself.

    Take Cabrera off the Tigers, and you're left with Austin Jackson, Prince Fielder, Alex Avila, Justin Verlander (you know, the guy that won MVP and Cy last year, and should've won Cy this year?), Max Scherzer, Anibal Sanchez, and Doug Fister. That is not a mediocre team.

    ERA and wins and losses ARE just some arbitrary pitching stats. ERA can be heavily dependent in your defense, and wins and losses heavily dependent on your offense. When you can give up six runs and still get the win, you know you're not dealing with a good stat.

    Saying a division was weak over 162 games isn't fair, but using one series in October is perfectly fair? That's just a joke. I'm hoping after a little reconsideration you can see how absurd that is.

    Saying Cabrera got them there is implying that Trout couldn't. This is another absurd argument.

    For this to have any merit, you would have to be saying that Mike Trout shouldn't win the AL MVP because he:

    Didn't close enough games for the Angels (do you have any clue how many blown saves they had?).
    Wasn't the starting pitcher for enough games for the Angels (4.06 ERA in April, 4.52 ERA in July, 5.68 ERA in August).
    Didn't move the team from the AL West to the AL Central (Angels won 89 games and would've easily won the Central, while the Tigers only won 88 and would've finished (gasp!) third in the West, despite the Triple Crown and Miguel Cabrera saving children from burning houses).


    The simple fact is, from the day Trout joined the team the Angels had the best record in the AL.

    And you didn't remotely address baserunning or defense, both of which do actually matter.

    The player with the most value in the American League - and in all of baseball - was Mike Trout. Period.
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    "Glad the GOP finally came out with an Obamacare alternative. Can't wait to see their alternative to the Iraq War." - @LOLGOP

  8. #68
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    Why does no one remember that the only reason the Tigers got into the playoffs was hot hitting but mostly a huge White Sox collopase!
    MIKE TROUT FOR MVP!!!!!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halopower31 View Post
    Why does no one remember that the only reason the Tigers got into the playoffs was hot hitting but mostly a huge White Sox collopase!
    Which Cabrera single-handedly caused, of course.
    Visit my Blog.



    "Glad the GOP finally came out with an Obamacare alternative. Can't wait to see their alternative to the Iraq War." - @LOLGOP

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Your argument destroys itself.

    Take Cabrera off the Tigers, and you're left with Austin Jackson, Prince Fielder, Alex Avila, Justin Verlander (you know, the guy that won MVP and Cy last year, and should've won Cy this year?), Max Scherzer, Anibal Sanchez, and Doug Fister. That is not a mediocre team.

    ERA and wins and losses ARE just some arbitrary pitching stats. ERA can be heavily dependent in your defense, and wins and losses heavily dependent on your offense. When you can give up six runs and still get the win, you know you're not dealing with a good stat.

    Saying a division was weak over 162 games isn't fair, but using one series in October is perfectly fair? That's just a joke. I'm hoping after a little reconsideration you can see how absurd that is.

    Saying Cabrera got them there is implying that Trout couldn't. This is another absurd argument.

    For this to have any merit, you would have to be saying that Mike Trout shouldn't win the AL MVP because he:

    Didn't close enough games for the Angels (do you have any clue how many blown saves they had?).
    Wasn't the starting pitcher for enough games for the Angels (4.06 ERA in April, 4.52 ERA in July, 5.68 ERA in August).
    Didn't move the team from the AL West to the AL Central (Angels won 89 games and would've easily won the Central, while the Tigers only won 88 and would've finished (gasp!) third in the West, despite the Triple Crown and Miguel Cabrera saving children from burning houses).


    The simple fact is, from the day Trout joined the team the Angels had the best record in the AL.

    And you didn't remotely address baserunning or defense, both of which do actually matter.

    The player with the most value in the American League - and in all of baseball - was Mike Trout. Period.
    I certainly see your point about other stats and factors. I also think voting is not fair in many awards. The Gold Glove seems to only go to a player who has good offensive numbers, etc. But based on past MVP races, I think Cabrera should and deserves to win. Also, you mentioned that Detroit would NOT be a mediocre team without Cabrera. I disagree. He won at least 18-25 games ALONE with his batting heroics. Take away let's say 20 wins, and the team is 68-94. That IS very mediocre. In fact, it would be one of the 10 worst records in baseball.

    Of course there are other factors in wins and losses (defense, base-running, etc), but if Verlander were 8-12 with a 4.50 ERA but was the best pitcher in baseball (just didn't have the run support or defense behind him), would he still deserve the Cy Young? Nope.

    I am taking away NOTHING from Mike Trout. He is AMAZING! His glove and speed on the base paths is right there at the top. But you can't discount the triple crown and a world series run. You just can't.

    PS. I LOVE your political views!


    "Lions, Tigers and Pistons, OH MY!" (and Hoosiers...and Redwings....)

  11. #71
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Which Cabrera single-handedly caused, of course.
    Uhhhhh! Why do I have to be ignorant and forgetful....
    MIKE TROUT FOR MVP!!!!!

  12. #72
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    I had to write a paper in English. You had to find an article you disagree with and show why. I did it on the MVP race

    Some people believe Miguel Cabrera should win the American League’s most valuable player award because he is the best offensive player in baseball. If the most valuable player award only took into account a players offensive numbers, then I could see their reasoning, but that is not the case. There is an award for the league’s best offensive player, the Hank Aaron Award, if we were debating whether or not Cabrera deserved this award, I would definitely side with the people that believe he should. The most valuable player award is given to the best all-around player, including a player’s offense, defense, and base running. Mike Trout excels in all three of those categories, while Miguel Cabrera is excellent in only one of them, offense, and subpar in the others, defense and base running.

    Mike Trout has struggled over the last month of the season, while Cabrera has done exceptionally well. Sean Rinehart says that, “Each player will be counted upon heavily to help their respective teams advance (to the post season),” and since Cabrera is helping his team more in their fight for the playoffs, he is the more valuable player. The writer makes a good point; the Angels are definitely relying heavily on Trout to do well so they can advance to the post season, while the Tigers are doing the same with Cabrera, but to act like games in September are more important than games in May is just completely wrong. A win or loss in May has the same effect on the standings as a win or loss in September.

    “There is no doubt that Sabermetrics (specialized analysis of baseball through objective evidence, especially baseball statistics that measure in-game activity) certainly has its place in the game today, but to say that Trout should win the MVP award because he edges Cabrera in a few distinct categories is lunacy.” The writer claims that Trout should not win the most valuable player award because he edges Cabrera in only a few distinct categories. After making this claim, he says that Cabrera should win the most valuable player award, and basis it on only three statistics, homeruns, batting average, and runs batted in (RBI), two of which have their flaws. The flaw in RBI is that it is completely dependent on your teammates getting on base in front of you. A player cannot control whether or not the hitters in front of him get on base. The flaw in batting average is it only tells us how many times a player reaches base after getting a hit, there are many other ways to reach base other than getting a hit. Walking and being hit by a pitch are a few examples. A players on base percentage takes into account all of the different ways a player reaches base, and therefore is a better statistic than batting average.

    Mike Trout’s speed makes him the best base runner in baseball. He is able to turn singles or walks into doubles and triples by stealing bases. He leads not only the American League, but the entire Major Leagues in stolen bases at 47; the next closest person has 39. Trout is also able to go from first base to third base on ordinary singles whereas average base runners are only able to advance from first base to second base. He is also able to score from first base on balls that are hit into the outfield gaps, whereas an average player is only able to get to third. Miguel Cabrera is not even an average base runner; he is well below average, and one of the worst in all of baseball. He is extremely slow, which is evident by his career total of 33 stolen bases. Cabrera slows down everyone behind him, which hurts his team.

    Trout and Cabrera both play important defensive positions, Trout plays center field, and Cabrera plays third base. Trout’s speed is once again a huge asset in this part of the game and it is what allows him to be one of the best outfielders in the game. Trout is able to catch pop flies that other outfielders do not even come close to catching. Cabrera’s speed, or lack thereof, once again hinders his ability to perform at a top level. Cabrera is not able to stop balls that average third basemen can stop because he does not have very good range, so if the ball is not hit within a few feet of him you can count on it going into the outfield.

    The only reasoning people have for Cabrera winning the most valuable player award is by the numbers he puts up on offense. The reasoning people have for Trout winning the most valuable player award is his offense, defense, and base running. Cabrera is slightly better than Trout offensively, but Trout makes up for it by being far superior on the defensive side of the ball and on the base paths. If Trout does not win the most valuable player award the baseball commissioner needs to make some serious changes to the voting system.
    I got an A on the paper

    This was the article
    Last edited by vladdy#27; 11-15-2012 at 05:22 PM.
    __________________________________._________

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by iu92grad View Post
    I certainly see your point about other stats and factors. I also think voting is not fair in many awards. The Gold Glove seems to only go to a player who has good offensive numbers, etc. But based on past MVP races, I think Cabrera should and deserves to win. Also, you mentioned that Detroit would NOT be a mediocre team without Cabrera. I disagree. He won at least 18-25 games ALONE with his batting heroics. Take away let's say 20 wins, and the team is 68-94. That IS very mediocre. In fact, it would be one of the 10 worst records in baseball.
    You make the mistake of thinking that because Cabrera was the one with the bat in his hand when the game ended, he was the one that won the game. Without his pitchers getting them in a position to win, and his offense keeping them close enough to win, it wouldn't matter what he did in that moment. The Tigers won 88 games, which means Cabrera is responsible for about eight wins alone, not 18-25. Plus, you cannot simply say that those games would be automatic losses without Cabrera. You still have Fielder, you still have Jackson, you still have a good-to-great rotation and a bullpen that was clearly better than the Angels.

    And, again, I'll just point you to the Angels having the best record in the AL since Trout joined the team. That's not a coincidence.

    Of course there are other factors in wins and losses (defense, base-running, etc), but if Verlander were 8-12 with a 4.50 ERA but was the best pitcher in baseball (just didn't have the run support or defense behind him), would he still deserve the Cy Young? Nope.
    Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young with a 13-12 record. Gio Gonzalez went 21-8, and finished behind a guy that went 14-9 in Cy Young Voting.

    If Verlander were 8-12 with a 4.50 ERA, I'd have serious questions about how he could be the best pitcher in baseball. It's pretty rare to find a guy with an ERA of four and a half but a FIP under 3. But, for the sake of discussion, if he was the best pitcher in baseball then he would deserve the Cy Young, obviously. But I wouldn't expect him to win it.

    I am taking away NOTHING from Mike Trout. He is AMAZING! His glove and speed on the base paths is right there at the top. But you can't discount the triple crown and a world series run. You just can't.

    PS. I LOVE your political views!
    The World Series run doesn't factor into it, because voting is done before the playoffs begin. It's also just goofy to give an individual award to a guy because of his team's performance. You can't penalize Trout for having a terrible bullpen anymore than you can reward Cabrera for having Justin Verlander head his rotation.

    And you absolutely can, and should, discount the triple crown. RBIs are completely useless, and are both team- and lineup-dependent, and things like OBP, SLG, and wOBA are going to tell you WAY more about a hitter than AVG will. HRs matter, of course, but things like SLG and ISO are going to tell you more about a hitter's power than raw HR totals.

    But, thanks for that.
    Visit my Blog.



    "Glad the GOP finally came out with an Obamacare alternative. Can't wait to see their alternative to the Iraq War." - @LOLGOP

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotownWebGuy View Post
    The counted votes won't be as close as people think. Achieving #1 with three most-major, common stats, sure beats achieving #1 with five lesser ranked stats.

    Miggy wins the MVP and Trout gets robbed of nothing. Trout just picked the wrong season to accomplish all those extraordinary, lesser ranked feats.

    Due to his accomplishments, there would be many seasons where Trout gets the MVP Award.
    But not in 2012. Triple Crowns are top-of-the-mountain and very rare.
    Miguel Cabrera was the best and most valuable player in MLB during 2012. He currently sits atop Mount Sinai and could write his own MLB 10 Commandments right now.

    Congrats to Miggy ... job well done.
    So I don't know what's more sad.....the fact that you think you are right when you are clearly wrong (RBIs mean absolutely nothing) or the fact that you come onto an Angels board to brag about your favorite player. I just know that even if Trout wins, I won't waste my time on the Tigers board bragging about it. Doubt I can say the same about you.

  15. #75
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    And Miggy wins......dumb voters.

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