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View Poll Results: Who wins?

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  • Bondi Beach

    33 50.00%
  • Springfield

    28 42.42%
  • GM's of these teams vote here

    5 7.58%
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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by roshan3ai View Post
    Is this going to be addressed?
    I'll address it. Yes, Irving is not that good defensively. However, as we stated, we're going to put him on Courtney Lee. And while Lee is capable of hitting the corner 3, lets not make him out to be an unstoppable force on offense. Over the last 3 years, Lee hasn't posted a TS% above 53.4% which over that span is below the league average. And its not like he's using a high amount of possessions, again below average in USG rate (its been approx. 17 for the last 3 seasons). Each year his ORtg has been about slightly below average as well. Simply put, we're fine if Springfield thinks Courtney Lee is going to beat us.

    There's a BIG difference between having your worst defender Irving on Courtney Lee vs having Faried on ZBo. I certainly hope you see that difference
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mile High Champ View Post
    KG won't have anybody this time around to help him on offense like he currently has in Boston. KG would likely be way less effective in this series considering Springfield is asking him to be their number 1 option as well as their defensive anchor. That is a lot to ask of a guy who has played 17 seasons in the league and is 35 years old.
    Not only that but if you look at KG's numbers in the playoffs, he wasn't that efficient. Most of his value came from what he brought defensively. But his offensive numbers, while decent, weren't great by any means. He had a usg rate of 26.7%, with a TS% of 54.1% which are good numbers but you'd probably want a higher efficiency out of your #1. In addition, his ORtg was only 101.

    However, it gets worst when you look at only the Philly and Miami series. His TS% goes down to 53.3% and ORtg goes down to 98 with a similar USG. Then, you look at the Miami series and his TS% went down even more to 52.4%. He basically got worse as each series went along, indicating he might've tired a bit on offense. Now, consider that he's had a full season of being the #1 option and has logged heavy minutes during the season (unlike what he did in Boston) and can you really expect KG to keep up a good offensive output in the playoffs? The answer is no.

    Then there's Steve Nash, who didn't even use a league average amount of possessions this year- below average USG rate of 19.4%. And he's their #2 scoring option. Anyone else see a problem with that?
    Last edited by PatsSoxKnicks; 10-02-2012 at 06:27 PM.
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  3. #48
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    I love Springfield's frontcourt and think Nash is a great fit at PG but Bondi Beach gets my vote. I had them ranked as a #3 seed in my rankings for a reason. Bondi can score from anywhere on the floor and can defend the wing and post. That's a recipe for success, especially in a close matchup. Nice job by Springfield though.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsSoxKnicks View Post
    Ok fair enough. So lets increase our sample size then. In 09-10, ZBo was about average defensively (actually he ranked in the top half of the league so above average). He gave up .89 Points Per Play which ranked 188th in the league in 09-10. It's not great by any means but its above average and solid. To compliment that, his post defense in 09-10 was even better than his overall numbers, ranking 141st in the league. Again, top half of the league.

    However, thats 2 years ago. So how about 10-11? Well even better. In fact, in 10-11, he was a flat out good defender. He ranked 120th overall in points per play and he was one of the better post defenders in the league giving up .79 points per play which ranked 85th in the league. He was also very good in 10-11 in guarding the pick and roll, ranking 71st.

    In addition, ZBO fares well in defensive adjusted +/- as well (which adjusts +/- numbers for teammates and opponent). In 10-2011, he had a positive impact on defense and in 09-10, he had a break even impact on D. So the evidence is very much there that ZBo has been getting better on defense.

    We aren't going to sit there and say he's a great defender or anything but there's enough evidence over the last few years that would indicate he's at the very least average defensively, if not even slightly above average.
    Very good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by PatsSoxKnicks View Post
    I'll address it. Yes, Irving is not that good defensively. However, as we stated, we're going to put him on Courtney Lee. And while Lee is capable of hitting the corner 3, lets not make him out to be an unstoppable force on offense. Over the last 3 years, Lee hasn't posted a TS% above 53.4% which over that span is below the league average. And its not like he's using a high amount of possessions, again below average in USG rate (its been approx. 17 for the last 3 seasons). Each year his ORtg has been about slightly below average as well. Simply put, we're fine if Springfield thinks Courtney Lee is going to beat us.

    There's a BIG difference between having your worst defender Irving on Courtney Lee vs having Faried on ZBo. I certainly hope you see that difference
    As a starter, CLee was great this year. 14 PPG on 40% from deep. Against Irving who lets shooters open all day, I wouldn't be surprised to see Lee score 15-18 PPG in this series, especially with Nash getting him open looks.

    I haven't voted yet, so don't think I am knocking your team for no reason. I just want to create discussion and this is me thinking aloud, cause I still don't know who I'll be voting for.

  5. #50
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    Also, another point we'd like to make. Nash, while a great PG, is turnover prone.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...true/year/2012

    Out of the PGs last year, he finished with one of the highest Turnover Ratio's in the league. And to get into specifics, on P&R situations last year, he turned the ball over on 23.8% of his plays. And meanwhile, we have Thabo on Nash and Thabo forced turnovers on 21.3% of the plays where he was guarding the P&R. So basically, Springfield can expect to give away 1 out of every 5 possessions and Thabo was an above average finisher in transition last year.

    A little math here- 60% of Nash's plays were P&R and 1/5 of those plays were turnovers. So thats 12% of Springfield's plays ending in turnovers. If Bondi converts at 1 ppp (which is easily possible), thats 12 points off Nash turnovers right there.
    Last edited by PatsSoxKnicks; 10-02-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by roshan3ai View Post
    As a starter, CLee was great this year. 14 PPG on 40% from deep. Against Irving who lets shooters open all day, I wouldn't be surprised to see Lee score 15-18 PPG in this series, especially with Nash getting him open looks.

    I haven't voted yet, so don't think I am knocking your team for no reason. I just want to create discussion and this is me thinking aloud, cause I still don't know who I'll be voting for.
    As a starter, he had a slightly higher USG rate but still below average (18.5) and was actually less efficient as a starter (52.7% TS% as a starter). So basically, not much of a difference from what he offered overall on the season. He was a little less efficient as a starter even if he shot the ball slightly more.

    And I'll say again, I don't think Courtney Lee is beating us in this series. And Irving on Lee is still nowhere near the mismatch that Faried on ZBo is. And as mentioned earlier, ZBo is a capable defender so Faried isn't gonna go off either.

    And anyways, 12 of those points we'll get back on Nash turnovers.

    Basically, with Thabo on Nash, Nash should be limited a bit. And he doesn't score a lot anyways which is why if Lee is really burning us, we could always put thabo on lee.

    Dunleavy will score more than rush as he's a better player and better offensively. Defensively, Dunleavy isn't nearly as bad as his rep. He's ranked about middle of the pack in overall ppp over the last 2 years (avg out to about 200) and in 09-10, he was ranked 91st in overall ppp on D. Now that was probably a fluke year, but collectively, he's been about average on defense. As for team impact, Dunleavy has actually had a positive impact in defensive adjusted +/-. He's also had a positive impact on defense according to regular +/- numbers as well (bucks were 5 points per 100 possessions better defensively when Dunleavy was on the court).

    And then when you consider the massive advantage we have at PF with ZBo over Faried, thats what really turns this series in our favor. And given KG's D, he might outscore Gortat by a couple points but then don't forget, we have the overrated defender Lee on Kyrie, who should get plenty of points as well. To put it simply and bluntly, we'll score more points then Springfield in each game, which means we'll win.
    Last edited by PatsSoxKnicks; 10-02-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jamal View Post
    Anyway, this is no contest for me. Bondi takes it in 6 games.

    KG and Nash, no matter how much people try and make them to be, are not 35+ min a game players anymore. If you expect them to be so, you're going to get them hurt or them playing at less than an elite level.
    Regular season, sure. But postseason with 1/2 off days in between each game? Hell no. No one would want it more than these 2 guys, and no doubt in my mind they'd give it their all. KG was playing 37 per game of extraordinary play even though the conference finals. Nash was playing 34 in the month of march this year. Fatigue won't be a huge problem.
    Nash and Irving would be a wash in my eyes, but having Thabo on Nash changes the whole series dynamic. Irving would struggle against Lee defensively, but I have absolutely no problem telling Courtney Lee go win a 7 game series for the other team
    So what about lee on Irving?

    The deciding factor for me are the bigs. I'm a believer in ZBO coming back healthy and I think he would operate extremely well as a Co #1 option with Kyrie. While I think Faried would be certainly much improved defensively next to KG, he's got an extremely tough match-up against ZBO in the post with this series as he struggled in that area last season. If Springfield decides to switch KG on ZBO, then Gortat becomes a significant post advantage.
    Faried is a beast in the post though, I defiantly think he'll give Randolph trouble but isn't Randolph is more of a midrange face up player no?

    Honestly I'm not 100% sold on Z-Bo yet we don't know for sure if he might just be a 2 year wonder and how bad will his D become without Gasol at his side?
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  8. #53
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    I don't think Zbo will be the same player either but he can definately bang bodies in the post. He's ridiculously effective scoring from offensive rebounds.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sportfan View Post
    So what about lee on Irving?
    The overrated defender Courtney Lee on Irving? The guy who ranked 280th in points per play on defense? The guy whose team was actually better defensively when he wasn't on the court?
    http://www.82games.com/1112/11HOU6.HTM#onoff

    Yeah, I don't see Irving struggling to score on Lee. Lee is nowhere near the defender Thabo is. And while I think Lee is a good defender (despite the poor numbers....), he's not a lockdown defender and he's not going to stop Irving.

    Edit: Another point on Lee's overrated defense- he was replacing Kevin Martin in the lineup and yet the Rockets weren't really any better with him on the court then when Kevin Martin was on the court. Considering Martin's horrible defense, thats not really a good indictment on Lee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sportfan View Post
    Faried is a beast in the post though, I defiantly think he'll give Randolph trouble but isn't Randolph is more of a midrange face up player no?

    Honestly I'm not 100% sold on Z-Bo yet we don't know for sure if he might just be a 2 year wonder and how bad will his D become without Gasol at his side?
    I mean Faried has a very raw post game which he almost never uses (to the tune of 58 total post plays on the year). Maybe in a couple years, he might be considered that post threat but not at this point. I highly doubt ZBo is going to have trouble with Faried's offense. And then there's the part where you ignored the part about ZBo's improved defense....

    Also, we have Gortat next to ZBo so while Gortat isn't quite Gasol defensively, he's pretty good himself. And as I mentioned earlier, ZBo has actually been pretty decent defensively over the last few seasons. And his defensive adjusted +/- numbers, which adjust for teammates and opponents have been on the positive side for the last few years.

    Although I just realized I lost Sporty's vote the minute that Springfield had 2 Celtics on their team and we have none
    Last edited by PatsSoxKnicks; 10-02-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    I don't think Zbo will be the same player either but he can definately bang bodies in the post. He's ridiculously effective scoring from offensive rebounds.
    Well its not like ZBo has ever really used his athleticism to score. I mean he usually jumps like 2 inches off the ground and scores. I think last year had more to do with rust and the lockout then anything else. He appears to be in good shape for this year.

    http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...yche-in-shape/

    Based on that article, it sounds like he might've been playing through some pain last year.
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  11. #56
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    Well I guess since I've started posting in the thread, we've increased our lead a nice amount, I'll continue to post why we should win.

    So if you look at Faried's offensive numbers, 23.9% of his plays come off offensive rebounds, which is the play type he uses the most (and an ORebound isn't really a play type, which shows he still is pretty limited offensively) and while he was very good at converting offensive rebounds into points, we have one of the best defensive rebounders in the game in ZBo, who should cut into the amount of offensive rebounds that Faried gets, which in turn will cut into the amount of points Faried gets. So because of ZBo's excellent rebounding, I think its safe to say we can expect Faried to score less in this series since he won't be getting as many garbage points off offensive rebounds.
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  12. #57
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    PSK is tha man


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  13. #58
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    he's statting the living **** outta these ppl


  14. #59
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    I went with Bondi for several reasons. 1.) I like Mike Dunleavy as a very good role player over Rush who is pretty one dimensional. 2.) Steve Nash and KG are on the decline where as Kyrie is only going to get better (although I almost docked Bondi serious points for STILL trying to push that "Kyrie is clutch" point. 3.) Thabo is a much better lockdown perimeter defender than anyone on Springfield's team which can really go a long way towards cooling a hot hand. 4.) I like Bondi's bench a lot more. (and yes I will be making bench an emphasis in my voting to compensate for that fact that nobody else hardly looks at it)

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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mile High Champ View Post
    Come on guys..



    How does any of this prove Nash beats out Irving in a match up? Please explain this to me because this contributes nothing to an argument.

    Thabo would certainly stop the offensive production of Nash while Springfield has nobody that can even remotely keep up with Irving.

    Also who is expected to score in this series for Springfield. They simply don't have enough offense to win a series and couple that with a weak defensive team outside of KG and you have issues.
    Simply not true. Massively overrrated defender and complete offensive liability. Nash will do as he pleases and would make his teammates better as he has done his whole career. You can't question who will score in Springfield as scrubs like Dudley, Gortat and Channing Frye have benefitted greatly from Nash.

    Give me Springfield all day long here. Wings are too weak on the other team

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