Greatest SF Of All Time

[Chronz]

Barry could do a lot of things, he probably meant that Barry was a selfish player that failed to do things that could have elevated his teams and teammates - but failed to do so.

That would make alot more sense even though its not close to what he said.

Barry is distinctly ahead of the Wilkins class of players for instance, but he's no Bird.

Hes well ahead of Wilkins

[Ebbs]

Lebron did this in a shortened season and this when nearly every star out of there primes including the playoffs where 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out. Not to mention there were many more elite superstars in Bird's era compared to now.

disagee. KD and LeBron are right there and will be in discussions with all tiem greats when it's all said and done. The Celtics may have been past their prime but KG apparently had a rebirth last year according to PSD, Rondo is at his best. Your point is incredibly relative.

[JordansBulls]

disagee. KD and LeBron are right there and will be in discussions with all tiem greats when it's all said and done. The Celtics may have been past their prime but KG apparently had a rebirth last year according to PSD, Rondo is at his best. Your point is incredibly relative.

I'm talking about PER wise. Duncan, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Rose, guys who put up good numbers were older or injured.
The celtics were also missing it's starting SG that year and still was up 3-2 without HCA.
But then again Bird lost 7 series with HCA.

[Ebbs]

I'm talking about PER wise. Duncan, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Rose, guys who put up good numbers were older or injured.
The celtics were also missing it's starting SG that year and still was up 3-2 without HCA.
But then again Bird lost 7 series with HCA.

Honestly I think you're the only person who puts serious weight into HCA. There are players who play better on the road than at home. Teams that have played better on the road than at home. HCA is nice to have but I think in most cases it's a very minimal factor.

[Chronz]

Larry took care of himself fine by the standards of his day/state of medicine.

He was born with a condition where his spinal cord had much less room inside his spine to move then most - making him very susceptible to irritation and worse.

After he saw Magic and others getting into better shape he went into a heavy duty weight lifting program which irritated his spine basically on a permanent basis. He tried all sorts of cures and methods and lived through constant pain his last few years in the game.

It he had knowledge of his condition well beforehand then Im in greater disbelief of the stories Ive heard of his offseason "workout" regimen. Sounds like reckless hick boy stuff. Not to mention the needless risk he took by participating in a bar fight during the playoffs, killing his teams chances.

[TheJesus]

If Lebron James were to retire today, he would go down as the best SF in NBA history in my book. Not as far as his resume is concerned, but just as far as play in his prime. His talent.

[JordansBulls]

Honestly I think you're the only person who puts serious weight into HCA. There are players who play better on the road than at home. Teams that have played better on the road than at home. HCA is nice to have but I think in most cases it's a very minimal factor.

Every all time great has a much better record with series with HCA vs not.

With HCA you win between 80-90 % of the series you are in while without HCA you win 30-40% of the series.

So say you have played 20 series with HCA you will probably win 16 of the 20 with HCA.
Say you played 10 series without HCA you will probably win 3 series without HCA.

16/20 = 80% w/HCA
3/10 = 30% w/o HCA

[bagwell368]

It he had knowledge of his condition well beforehand then Im in greater disbelief of the stories Ive heard of his offseason "workout" regimen. Sounds like reckless hick boy stuff.

He did not. He had no idea. It was widely and deeply reported at the time after it was discovered, I expect it wouldn't be hard to track down stories about it. He also had bad heels which caused a lot of problems.

His pre game workout by himself was legendary for it's intensity, length, and it's covering about every situation possible for one person.

Not to mention the needless risk he took by participating in a bar fight during the playoffs, killing his teams chances.

Yeah, Larry was a man's man. Not always a wise thing. But:

After Moses said before the '81 Finals that him and 4 of his buddies from his HS team could beat the Celts, Bird kept quiet - and helped the Celts win in 6.

After Isiah made his very unfortunate comment about Bird, Bird accepted his apology which helped knock down what could have been a mess the league wouldn't have recovered from for years. He also let Rodman off the hook as well.

Bird is a complex guy that has come a long way from poverty and a father that killed himself when Bird was a teenager. Bird has made it as a player, Coach, and GM.

Oh yes, he was one of the great trash talkers of all time, baiting Erving into an unwise physical attack after Bird taunted him over and over about his 42 points to 6 for Erving. He also mixed it up with Laimbeer in '87, which I cannot for the life of me disagree with.

He also retired a few weeks before he was to collect the last installment of his final contract (over $2M I believe). He refused to reconsider, or take the money which was offered.

Like I said - complex and a complete original.

[Chronz]

He did not. He had no idea. It was widely and deeply reported at the time after it was discovered, I expect it wouldn't be hard to track down stories about it. He also had bad heels which caused a lot of problems.

His pre game workout by himself was legendary for it's intensity, length, and it's covering about every situation possible for one person.



Yeah, Larry was a man's man. Not always a wise thing. But:

After Moses said before the '81 Finals that him and 4 of his buddies from his HS team could beat the Celts, Bird kept quiet - and helped the Celts win in 6.

After Isiah made his very unfortunate comment about Bird, Bird accepted his apology which helped knock down what could have been a mess the league wouldn't have recovered from for years. He also let Rodman off the hook as well.

Bird is a complex guy that has come a long way from poverty and a father that killed himself when Bird was a teenager. Bird has made it as a player, Coach, and GM.

Oh yes, he was one of the great trash talkers of all time, baiting Erving into an unwise physical attack after Bird taunted him over and over about his 42 points to 6 for Erving. He also mixed it up with Laimbeer in '87, which I cannot for the life of me disagree with.

He also retired a few weeks before he was to collect the last installment of his final contract (over $2M I believe). He refused to reconsider, or take the money which was offered.

Like I said - complex and a complete original.

Well said, the unfortunate reality is that those choices come with consequences, cutting short his prime in the process. Even in his prime you had to deal with alot of nagging injuries that came with his play style/mentality.


His work ethic is legendary, but the results on the court aren't so gaudy to me. I value Peak above anything, but the way Bron is going, this has the look of being one of those no brainer decisions purely based on longevity. Its why I take Kobe over Bird, so obviously Bron is going to get the same treatment.

[bagwell368]

I have a minor nit with the comments in the poll. Baylor was not the best rebounder of the group - unless you go with raw totals - which in Baylor's time was pumped up by having FG%'s as low as the high 30's.

If you take the average team rebounds in Baylor's and Bird's best rebounding years you get 5789 in Baylor's league (in 79 games) vs. 3646 (in 82 games) in Bird's time. Then bring in the rebound totals of the two and its nearly a tie.

Baylor like Bird had a shortish career. Baylor gets a lot of fame for being the first above the rim player. But I saw Baylor in his late prime and he couldn't touch Bird. Not in any offensive category was Baylor better. One on one D - pretty close.

All of Baylor's great playoff play came before my time. He was a sad figure towards the end, more so then Bird even. I hate to see great players long after the prime is done.

[bagwell368]

Well said, the unfortunate reality is that those choices come with consequences, cutting short his prime in the process. Even in his prime you had to deal with alot of nagging injuries that came with his play style/mentality.

But none of those fights caused lasting harm. His heels were also genetic.

His work ethic is legendary, but the results on the court aren't so gaudy to me. I value Peak above anything, but the way Bron is going, this has the look of being one of those no brainer decisions purely based on longevity. Its why I take Kobe over Bird, so obviously Bron is going to get the same treatment.

Yeah seemingly. But like I wrote yesterday, the best of the best almost don't fit into straight numeric order.

One tendency I see (not you per se) is that people chase down the scorers for "best" player - often ignoring the other dimensions. I never buy the argument for a GOAT since a team of 5 is the way the game is played. The guys on the team have to function as a team (a two way team).

James has the talent, I'm still watching his ability to be a teammate or a star at the right times in games. Wilt for instance seemed to decide what he was going to do before the game, and stick to that. Russell had to stick to his script because he couldn't function in other ways - not nearly as well that is. Last year James was great. Prior years he wasn't. The NBA and those hard floors don't yield that well. How much more will james do in the time he has left? Nobody knows.

[amos1er]

You're missing the point. You made it out like I was some delusional fan boy for putting LeBron in the discussion with Bird. You gave no reasoning and I did supply support for my claim.

I didn't make it out like you were a delusional fan boy for putting Lebron in the discussion with Bird. I made it out like you were a delusional fan boy for saying that Lebron has already surpassed Bird.

I have given more than sufficient evidence throughout this thread. I suggest you take a look.

[amos1er]

I'm on your side with Bird, but McHale in his prime destroys Bosh - he's about the 35th best player of all time - and it's mostly due to his peak. Bosh isn't near that, and won't match that. McHale was a vastly better and more flexible defender, he was also a distinctly superior low post player - by a ton. Bosh's best 7 years will never touch McHale's - never. So far he hasn't done it.

McHale - Years WS/48 league rank (top 10 or better): 5, 5, 4, 4, 7

Bosh - None

Wade > McHale

[JordansBulls]

This thread should be here

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...d.php?t=765123

[amos1er]

You're missing the point. You made it out like I was some delusional fan boy for putting LeBron in the discussion with Bird. You gave no reasoning and I did supply support for my claim.

The only "reasoning" I saw you give to support your claim was PER. I didn't know that PER was the end all be all stat. So are you saying that just because Lebron's top five PER's are higher, he has surpassed larry Bird? Quick, stop the presses!!! Get me Sports Center on the phone at once...we have breaking news...Ebbs has discovered that Lebron's top five career PER's were higher than Larry Bird...We must inform the experts at once...They were all wrong this whole time and this new discovery proves it without a doubt...Lebron has indeed surpassed Larry Bird as a basketball player because his top five PER's were higher.

Dwayne Wade had a higher PER than both Durant and Howard last season...does that make him the better player?

Blake Griffin had a higher PER than Dirk and Kobe last season...does that make him the better player?

Kevin Love had a higher PER than Howard and Kobe last season...does that make him the better player?

Bob Pettit has a higher career PER than Tim Duncan...does that make him the better player?

Barkley has a higher career PER than Kareem...does that make him the better player?

David Robinson has a higher career PER than Bird...does that make him the better player?

Karl Malone has a higher career PER than Oscar Robertson...does that make him the better player?

Dirk Nowitzki has a higher career PER than Larry Bird...does that make him the better player?

Karl Malone lead the league in PER in 96...does that mean he was better than Jordan that year?

Adrian Dantley led the league in PER in 1984...does that mean he was the best player in the league?

Shaq led the league in PER in 1998...does that mean he was the best player in the league...even better than Jordan?

David Robinson lead the league in PER in 1996, does that mean he was the best player in the league...even better than Jordan?

Dirk Nowitzki led the league in PER in 2006...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Better than Wade and Kobe?

T-Mac led the league in PER in 2003...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Better than Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Kobe?

Wade led the league in PER in 2007...does that mean he was the best player in the league? Even better than Kobe, Nash, Duncan, and Dirk? He lost in the first round that year and has clearly had better statistical seasons.

Lebron has led the league in PER since 2008...does that mean he has been the best player all those years? Wait, I already know how you're going to answer that.

Fact is that even your precious PER is flawed and can be taken out of context. It's utterly ridiculous to hold PER as an and all be all stat. Even your idol Hollinger would agree. I could easily pick some random stat or accolade for my favorite player too and say that since he has has a higher top five of whatever I happened to pick it must mean that he is the better player.

Now lets look at a more fair and objective way of comparing Bird and Lebron by comparing their primes. Notice how my comparison includes factors other than PER and how it shows a non bias by reflecting their prime years instead of the five years that you hand picked in order to show off Lebron's top PER years.

Larry's Prime 83-88
83-84: 24PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 24.2 TS% 55 62 Wins
84-85: 29PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 26.5 TS% 58 63 Wins
85-86: 26PPG 10RPG 7APG PER 25.6 TS% 58 67 Wins
86-87: 28PPG 9RPG 8APG PER 26.4 TS% 61 59 Wins
87-88: 30PPG 9RPG 6APG PER 27.8 TS% 60 57 Wins

2x NBA Title
3x NBA MVP
2x NBA Finals MVP
5x NBA Allstar
5x All NBA First Team
1x All NBA defensive 2nd Team
4X NBA Finals Appearances

Lebron's Prime 08-present
07-08: 30PPG 8RPG 7APG PER 29.1 TS% 57 45 Wins
08-09: 28PPG 8RPG 7APG PER 31.7 TS% 59 66 Wins
09-10: 30PPG 7RPG 9APG PER 31.1 TS% 60 61 Wins
10-11: 27PPG 7RPG 7APG PER 27.7 TS% 59 58 Wins
11-12: 27PPG 8RPG 6APG PER 30.7 TS% 61 46/66 Wins

1x NBA Title
1x NBA Finals MVP
3x MVP
5x All NBA First Team
4x All NBA First Defensive Team
5x NBA Allstar
2 X NBA Finals Appearances

They both have 3 MVP's, 5 Allstar appearances, and 5 All NBA First Teams. Lebron has a slight statistical edge overall and was the better defender, but Birds peak numbers are better. So I'd say Lebron has a very slight advantage here. Then when you take into account that Bird has one more title and finals MVP under his belt it looks like Bird clearly has had the better prime. Also, Bird made it to the finals more times where he faced far more difficult opponents in the Showtime Lakers than Lebron faced in the 2011 Mavs. Bird also beat more difficult opponents when he won his titles. And lets not forget if we compare careers...Lebron is even further behind as Bird has another title under his belt.