Greatest SF Of All Time

[amos1er]

if we account for degree of difficulty than wouldn't it be lebrons advantage playing with scrubs for 7 years than having wade play one amazing season than having him hobbled and injured his second? lets consider that bird played with a more stacked team. also playing in chicago would have probably brought along bosh, rose is almost as good as wade plus they have a legit center in noah something miami is seriously missing.

I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.

[amos1er]

I didn't care if you answered my question, it was actually a statement for you, and the rest of the complete Kobe/Laker homers.

What have I ever said that would lead you to believe that I am a complete/Kobe/Laker homer?

I have another question for you...

Why do you feel the need to constantly go out of your way to point out and scrutinize the flawed arguments that the so called "Kobephiles" make yet not ever once take the time to point out the flawed arguments the Lebronite/Kobe haters make? If you view your self as truly non-bias, then why not treat both sets of obnoxious posters equally.

While I don't actually view you as a "Kobe hater" per se as I've seen you actually make an effort to be fair and impartial during debates on a somewhat consistant basis. I do however feel there is some bias in your views due to the fact that you have a record of going out of your way to attack one side and not the other. Both posters are equally as obnoxious, yet the Kobephiles seem to bother you more for some reason...

[Andrew32]

Both posters are equally as obnoxious, yet the Kobephiles seem to bother you more for some reason...

Moderators all have their own personality's.
You can't expect them to be perfect impartial robots... that is ridiculous.

Also two wrongs don't make a right.
If one murderer gets caught and arrested but the other one is let go in the process is that wrong?

You aren't gonna let the murderer go and say "you aren't a murderer" just because the other one got away.

Unless you are a "kobephile" you shouldn't be bothered by those type of posters being called out if they say ridiculous or obviously biased things.

If you have a problem with something someone posted just report it and move on or PM a moderator if it bothers you enough.

[amos1er]

Moderators all have their own personality's.
You can't expect them to be perfect impartial robots... that is ridiculous.

Also two wrongs don't make a right.
If one murderer gets caught and arrested but the other one is let go in the process is that wrong?

You aren't gonna let the murderer go and say "you aren't a murderer" just because the other one got away.

Unless you are a "kobephile" you shouldn't be bothered by those type of posters being called out if they say ridiculous or obviously biased things.

If you have a problem with something someone posted just report it and move on or PM a moderator if it bothers you enough.

I don't really have a big problem with it, I just pointed it out because he referred to me as a "complete Kobe/Laker homer" in the previous post.

[bagwell368]

That's BS and frankly not true. Your talking about series not playoffs as a whole. The whole Boston was greatly exaggerated but whatever it is what it is.

I danced around like an elf watching the Celts tie a big fat "loser" bow on James those two years. He was disgraceful in terms of leadership or heart. Go watch more tape.

You talk about his bad series in the post season but you fail to recognize his good ones.

I didn't fail anything. I'm arguing a point. I am only responsible for that, you want to counter, feel free.

There were some classic series vs. the Wizards back in the day. No one forgets what he did to the Pistons and last year he was fantastic against the Bulls.

He was very good in those. But, were they deciding Series?

Also Wades performance this post season was not very good. Bosh was hurt and missed time. The LeBron having a ton of talent to win argument is BS when like someone previously stated no one wins on their own.

Yes, James was immense last year, hands down the best player in the league. Now that he's taken care of that, which direction will he go in? That's the question. He's not going to win 7 titles or even 5. Wade is declining, 3-4 appear to be the max.

[b@llhog24]

He'll probably pull up some YouTube clips as substance

I don't think you quite understand how this works. Since you are the one who disagrees with the majority opinion, it's you who is required to first come to the table with some sort of "substance". Again, let me reiterate, you are the one rejecting the general consensus. This thread is a poll after all and your opinion reflects the one that was voted to be the minority. the burden of proof therefore lies with you as I said in the previous post.

I am not "following the crowd blindly", I just happen to share their opinion.

Additionally, there have been numerous posts throughout this thread loaded with sufficient "substance" to merit the majority opinion. With that in mind, I really don't feel it's fair for you to burden me by asking me to personally rehash what was already said all over again when all you have to do is look through the thread yourself. Once you do, I can assure you will find more than enough of a compelling argument to justify why the majority of people originally voted in favor Bird over Lebron. If you still disagree, feel free to form your own conclusion that hopefully includes some vital information you feel was not brought to the table originally. The next logical step is then write a rebuttal. If you are then able to make a valid enough point in contradiction to the popular opinion through your rebuttal, I will then respond with the "substance" you are looking for.

I have a question for you? When the majority opinion elects a leader through the the democratic voting process our country was founded on, are they "following the crowd blindly too"? Do you consider anyone who votes in contrast to you to be following the crowd blindly? Isn't it possible that they simply agree with the opposing position? I could easily use your same logic back at you and say you are following the Lebron crowd blindly. I was simply pointing out the fact that the majority concurs with my opinion, not that I only agree because it's the majority.

He's provided his opinion with plenty of substance.

I'm not mad at anyone who chooses Bird but people sayiong there is no argument are off their rockers.

LeBron has played 9 seasons, and Bird has played 13. LeBron has 2 less finals appearances, 2 less titles and an equal number of MVP's.

Defensively LeBron is a no contest against Bird. As a playmaker it's close and LeBron is actually averaging more APG on a career basis. Bird was an incredible scorer and shooter but he had nowhere close to the athleticism or strength LBJ has.

LeBron's top 5 PER's: 28.1, 29.1, 30.7, 31.1, 31.7 (led league 5x in stat.)
Bird's top 5 PER's. 24.2, 25.6, 26.4, 26.5, 27.8 (lead league 2x in stat.)

(As a side note LeBrons 30.3 PER over this past post season and inhuman 37.4 in 08-09 absolutely smoke Birds post season highs of 23.9 and 26.3)

That's BS and frankly not true. Your talking about series not playoffs as a whole. The whole Boston was greatly exaggerated but whatever it is what it is.

IMO LeBron taking that garbage *** Cleveland team to the finals holds almost as much weight as this year.

You talk about his bad series in the post season but you fail to recognize his good ones. There were some classic series vs. the Wizards back in the day. No one forgets what he did to the Pistons and last year he was fantastic against the Bulls.

Also Wades performance this post season was not very good. Bosh was hurt and missed time. The LeBron having a ton of talent to win argument is BS when like someone previously stated no one wins on their own.

.

I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.

So title years are the only years that matter?

What have I ever said that would lead you to believe that I am a complete/Kobe/Laker homer?

I have another question for you...

Why do you feel the need to constantly go out of your way to point out and scrutinize the flawed arguments that the so called "Kobephiles" make yet not ever once take the time to point out the flawed arguments the Lebronite/Kobe haters make? If you view your self as truly non-bias, then why not treat both sets of obnoxious posters equally.

While I don't actually view you as a "Kobe hater" per se as I've seen you actually make an effort to be fair and impartial during debates on a somewhat consistant basis. I do however feel there is some bias in your views due to the fact that you have a record of going out of your way to attack one side and not the other. Both posters are equally as obnoxious, yet the Kobephiles seem to bother you more for some reason...

It's what happens when you root for the inferior player.

[Heediot]

Bird, for now. LBJ will more than likely surpass him.

[bagwell368]

Bird never had anyone as good as Wade and Bosh. Though his team was deeper, but not enough to account for having a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

I'm on your side with Bird, but McHale in his prime destroys Bosh - he's about the 35th best player of all time - and it's mostly due to his peak. Bosh isn't near that, and won't match that. McHale was a vastly better and more flexible defender, he was also a distinctly superior low post player - by a ton. Bosh's best 7 years will never touch McHale's - never. So far he hasn't done it.

McHale - Years WS/48 league rank (top 10 or better): 5, 5, 4, 4, 7

Bosh - None

[SLY WILLIAMS]

You guys cant see what made Bird great in statistics. Watch the last 4 minutes of a close playoff game and you will see what made Bird great. The guy was the only one that could trash talk MJ and win. He would just find a way be it a steal, a pass or a great clutch shot. What made Larry a legend cant be debated via statistics. I literally hated the guy because he was so great and worse he was so clutch. It drove me crazy. He dominated the best of his time be it DrJ, Dominque, Worth, English, Dantley, etc. Guys like Parrish, Mchale, and Walton had some real special skills but they always knew Larry Bird was the man on the Celtics. I cant even compare Lebron because when it comes to late game pressure situations Larry may be the best player of all time.

[IndyRealist]

If this wasn't Bird by a landslide PSD should be shut down.

[Chronz]

He was already on one.

Bird never had anyone as good as Wade and Bosh. Though his team was deeper, but not enough to account for having a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Bosh? Was that a typo?

[Chronz]

if we account for degree of difficulty than wouldn't it be lebrons advantage playing with scrubs for 7 years than having wade play one amazing season than having him hobbled and injured his second? lets consider that bird played with a more stacked team. also playing in chicago would have probably brought along bosh, rose is almost as good as wade plus they have a legit center in noah something miami is seriously missing.

I'm talking about degree of difficulty while at the same time getting the job done. Bird went all the way with lesser talent against greater competition.

Any of Birds championship teams would have been able to make short work of the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder. Could you honestly say the same about Lebron's Heat vs. 81 Rockets/Sixers, 84 Lakers, or 86 Rockets? Bird never had a finals performance as bad as Lebron in 2011 or 2007, yet Lebron has never had as good a finals performance as Bird has against much greater opponents.

Bird: 1984 Finals MVP: 27.4 ppg, 14 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.1 spg against the Showtime Lakers.

Bird: 1986 Finals MVP: 24 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg (basically a tripple double) against a very solid Hakeem Olajuwon led Huston Rockets team that beat out the Showtime Lakers in the WCF.

Lebron 2012 Finals MVP: 28.6 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg against a very green OKC team with a top 5 and a top 15-20 player at his side.

Even when Bird lost in the finals twice to the Showtime Lakers, he never played as bad as Lebron did in the 2011 finals or the 2007 finals. Bird won his first title in his second year in the league against a great Moses Malone lead Rockets team, averaging 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg and 2.3 spg, so don't give me crap about how Lebron was young when he played in the 2007 finals.

Lmfao, so the thunder were green, but the injury ravaged rockets were solid and in no way newbies. I'm betting the sub .500 rockets were sleeping giants as well

[todu82]

Larry Bird

[Ebbs]

I don't really have a big problem with it, I just pointed it out because he referred to me as a "complete Kobe/Laker homer" in the previous post.

You're missing the point. You made it out like I was some delusional fan boy for putting LeBron in the discussion with Bird. You gave no reasoning and I did supply support for my claim.

[JordansBulls]

I'm not mad at anyone who chooses Bird but people sayiong there is no argument are off their rockers.

LeBron has played 9 seasons, and Bird has played 13. LeBron has 2 less finals appearances, 2 less titles and an equal number of MVP's.

Defensively LeBron is a no contest against Bird. As a playmaker it's close and LeBron is actually averaging more APG on a career basis. Bird was an incredible scorer and shooter but he had nowhere close to the athleticism or strength LBJ has.

LeBron's top 5 PER's: 28.1, 29.1, 30.7, 31.1, 31.7 (led league 5x in stat.)
Bird's top 5 PER's. 24.2, 25.6, 26.4, 26.5, 27.8 (lead league 2x in stat.)

(As a side note LeBrons 30.3 PER over this past post season and inhuman 37.4 in 08-09 absolutely smoke Birds post season highs of 23.9 and 26.3)

Lebron did this in a shortened season and this when nearly every star out of there primes including the playoffs where 2 of the top 5 players in the league were out. Not to mention there were many more elite superstars in Bird's era compared to now.